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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: SaschaVW on April 04, 2024, 11:42:46 am

Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: SaschaVW on August 01, 2024, 04:59:14 pm
Hi,

Please see below response from TFL - they have not surprisingly rejected my appeal. What do you advice now - shall I  just cut my losses? The outstanding balance remains at £80.

Thanks in advance,

(https://i.imgur.com/a1vXFWW.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/EJzmWTI.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/LHgYQqu.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bQ23dgF.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/NDWFrsI.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/SVJleRm.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/lobdBYx.jpeg)
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: H C Andersen on July 09, 2024, 10:12:45 am
IMO, at present there's no evidence of a statutory defence for you.

The list in an earlier post is purely speculative or prospective and doesn't bear upon the facts as known i.e. you parked in a clearly and properly (as in adequately) marked bay.

1) PCSO uniform not compliant, - speculative as you weren't there and didn't see them;
2) The copy of the PCN that they produce at the tribunal is not a true copy of the original, as per Vanessa Price v Nottingham City Council (NG00044-2201, 7 March 2022) and Tahir Hamid v London Borough of Waltham Forest (2220519865, 9 August 2022)- speculative, it hasn't happened yet;
3) The notice of rejection is ambiguous - similarly speculative.*

TfL often re-offer a discounted sum but whether this is contingent upon the reps being submitted no later than day 14 I'm not sure. If it is then submit reps to arrive no later than Mon. 15th(day 14), which means post first class no later than 11th and get proof of posting.

*- while the speculation might be based on recorded deficiencies in other cases, you should be aware that the same may not apply in your case. Items 2 and 3 would become evident on receipt of a rejection hence why attempting to maintain the discounted level of penalty is important.
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: SaschaVW on July 09, 2024, 09:08:13 am
Hi @cp8759,

Many thanks for the advice, I will send the letter as you have advised.

I'm a bit concerned about the mounting fine, conscious it goes up the longer this is outstanding. What do you think my chances are at a tribunal and what is the associated cost of this process?

Thanks for your continued help and support.
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: cp8759 on July 08, 2024, 10:44:28 pm
Well in practice there is nothing you could say that would persuade TFL to cancel the PCN voluntarily, this will have to go to the tribunal so that they can be forced to. As you can't take back what you said in the informal representations, you might as well send something short and to the point:

Dear Transport for London,

I require you to reconsider my informal representations afresh.

Yours faithfully,

It looks like you can't make representations online, so you might have to send a letter in the post, in which case you must keep a copy of what you've sent and you must get proof of postage (free at any post office counter).
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: SaschaVW on July 08, 2024, 11:17:47 am
Hi - sorry I thought they were just generic and not needed, but please see below:

(https://i.imgur.com/gMjTht9.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3OkBGHF.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nn3ViCa.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OMiiuvd.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zpeQO8r.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/BOLmkAr.jpeg)
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: mogul87 on July 08, 2024, 11:13:52 am
Quote from: SaschaVW on July 08, 2024, 11:08:54 am
Hi @cp8759

I've now had the NTO as per the below, would be grateful if you could advise on nest steps and options available to me.

Thanks as always

https://imgur.com/a/udvZxBV
Please post all pages and all sides
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: John U.K. on July 08, 2024, 11:12:02 am
Any more pages?
For convenience:

(https://i.imgur.com/L1NshFB.jpeg)


Here you go:

(https://i.imgur.com/3OkBGHF.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nn3ViCa.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/OMiiuvd.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/zpeQO8r.jpeg)
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: SaschaVW on July 08, 2024, 11:08:54 am
Hi @cp8759

I've now had the NTO as per the below, would be grateful if you could advise on nest steps and options available to me.

Thanks as always

https://imgur.com/a/udvZxBV
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: cp8759 on June 10, 2024, 09:39:17 am
It means they've asked DVLA for the registered keeper's name and address, but have not had a response yet.
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: SaschaVW on June 10, 2024, 09:24:54 am
Hi @cp8759 - I have just checked and there's no reference of the NTO being issues, but there is an update on 31 May saying "on hold - DVLA action", I've attached a screenshot below. Any ideas what this might mean?

(https://i.imgur.com/ZYOZaHI.jpeg)
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: cp8759 on May 27, 2024, 01:24:19 pm
It might be worth checking the PCN status on https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn once every couple of weeks, just in case the NTO is lost in the post. The PCN status should tell you when the NTO has been issued.
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: SaschaVW on May 20, 2024, 10:06:08 am
Ok will do! Yes the address is up to date, not received so far. Will let you know when it comes through. Many thanks!
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: cp8759 on May 19, 2024, 05:16:10 pm
@SaschaVW just wait for the notice to owner. I take it the address on the V5C is up to date?
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: SaschaVW on May 14, 2024, 04:08:36 pm
I've had a response to my appeal - it hasn't really made any reference to the points I raised and talks a lot abut loading which I didn't raise.

The letter is dated 2 May but I have not received it until today (14 May).

Any guidance on next steps would be very much appreciated.

Thanks for all of your assistance so far.

(https://i.imgur.com/9q7DrkV.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/uustfO9.jpeg)
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: cp8759 on April 29, 2024, 08:11:32 pm
For later:

The GLA Side Roads (London Borough of Richmond) Designation Order 2007 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fXw96VrqPhhLTCdocZwrf5A4znkwPnn8/view)
The GLA Side Roads (London Borough of Richmond) Designation Order 2007, Variation Order 2014 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FzbJ_WmsHnkMTvk-VZnCBg6mhJQmt72C/view)
The GLA Roads and GLA Side Roads (Richmond Upon Thames) Red Route Consolidation Traffic Order 2007 Variation Order 2019 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UxMKhANVQkquz19hAjFbXvqdRbW-K-Xx/view)
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: SaschaVW on April 22, 2024, 08:03:04 am
Ah sorry - I think I got confused from when the 14 days was up to pay the £80 - not the deadline for the appeal.
Will next time wait for your advice - thanks so much it's so very appreciated.
I will let you know when I hear back.
Many thanks
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: cp8759 on April 21, 2024, 02:58:07 pm
@SaschaVW the deadline is 30 April, not sure why you thought it was the 16th?

It's fine if you've sent that already, but at the notice to owner stage please do not make representations without checking with us first, it's best not to rush things.
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: SaschaVW on April 16, 2024, 01:17:26 pm
Hi,

Sorry this is late, been hectic with work, realised need to get appeal in today! If someone can check it then fab, totally understand if not and will submit as per the below knowing that we can add to the challenge later on.

Proposed challenge:

I am writing to appeal against the PCN I received on 3rd April for parking on a red route.

The reasons for my appeal are:

1. I had no awareness this was a red route, if I had know I would not have parked there. The marking on the road are not clear, and as a car was parked in front the red lines in front of that car were not visible to me when driving into the space. Whilst I acknowledge there was a sign next to the car, it is perpendicular to it and not in front, so therefore I did not see it when driving into the space. As I had no awareness the side road was a red route, I had no cause to look for the sign. I was aware of the residents parking bays and thought this was a bay not covered by these restrictions, I had no reason to look for further parking restrictions. I therefore consider that the signage was inadequate.
2. My flat is the the block of flats on the other side of Lower Richmond Road, there is unrestricted parking on Manor Road and surrounding roads, so I absolutely not have parked on Marksberry Avenue if I had known it was a red route.
3. The only reason I had parked on Marksberry Avenue is due to the extensive roadworks outside my flat, undertaken by TFL, these works have been delayed and caused much delay and traffic pollutions to me and my fellow neighbours. I therefore parked on Marksberry avenue purely to try and avoid the excessive traffic on Lower Richmond Road caused by these road works and ongoing delays.


Kind regards

Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: cp8759 on April 08, 2024, 06:14:28 pm
If we don't get the traffic order & designation order before 30 April, start by making an informal representation on the TFL website basically saying that the signage must be inadequate as you never spotted it. Write a draft and put it on here for review before sending it.
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: SaschaVW on April 08, 2024, 09:36:33 am
Thanks so much for your help with this - it's so very appreciated.
Yes I am the registered owner and the V5 has the correct address on.
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: cp8759 on April 05, 2024, 11:03:58 pm
TFL photos:

(https://i.imgur.com/aggMXxh.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/zw26zh4.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/DEIQX13.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/MWC9KFa.jpeg)

I have ordered the GLA sides roads designation order and the traffic order, in the meantime the arguments that can be deployed at the tribunal (but should be kept in reserve for now) are:

1) PCSO uniform not compliant,
2) The copy of the PCN that they produce at the tribunal is not a true copy of the original, as per Vanessa Price v Nottingham City Council (NG00044-2201, 7 March 2022) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YAg82YBKfVyHTSQmdOI229Yt5QccDKFt/view) and Tahir Hamid v London Borough of Waltham Forest (2220519865, 9 August 2022) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WdoRilUvG0swh40tPX2vH5r0AJF-M3Um/view)
3) The notice of rejection is ambiguous as per:

Nayeem Haque v Transport for London (2220767288, 15 November 2022) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KavlK0nNvWS2eI9ICkqjBQRg9-L-2mHc/view)
Mike Welch v Transport for London (2230428700, 18 November 2023) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ijJW4O3zHz-LOkVRi4QHmdf983n1yyJ8/view)
Lubavitch Synagogue v Transport for London (2230535074, 5 February 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xokOkjdoJf0e5CBjBP7smnErCrMxps0m/view)
Commercial Plant Services Ltd v Transport for London (2240018512, 12 February 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qwj3XYfPvFZBh-ag3HYuQEUHtFXwxvHf/view)
Mathew Mathai v Transport for London (2240062219, 15 March 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QoDnU5djhqtHMDDHbPiHIhVOC7KmHxIZ/view)

For now, can you please confirm whether you're the registered keeper and have the V5C? If so, is the address on the V5C up to date?
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: SaschaVW on April 05, 2024, 10:00:52 am
Hi - great news - thank you so much. Please see image here of PCN (I hope I've done it correctly!)

(https://i.imgur.com/MwoKwkm.jpeg)
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: cp8759 on April 04, 2024, 11:12:48 pm
@SaschaVW you can challenged based on a lot more than that, but start by showing us the PCN please. See the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) on how to post images properly.
Title: Re: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: Hippocrates on April 04, 2024, 11:53:24 am
Wait for the wizard to advise.
Title: TFL fine for parking on Red route
Post by: SaschaVW on April 04, 2024, 11:42:46 am
This post was originally posted on Pepipoo (thank you Ivan for re-directing me here!)
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=153824


Hi,
I’ve just had a fine for parking on a red route - I’ve been parking there for months (it’s opposite my flat) and never realised it was a red route.
My car is the red mini and when driving into the bay I’ve never noticed the red lines. I’ve been cautious about the residents parking zone so know I can’t park in other bays past this point.
As you will see from the photos, there is a sign (right in front of my car!) but I’ve just never spotted it - I know this is not a defence and I'm probably banged to rights.
Can I challenge based on the markings or is the fact the sign is there sufficient?
Thanks!!



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