Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: ReflectoR on July 06, 2023, 04:35:57 pm

Title: VICTORY!
Post by: ReflectoR on November 24, 2023, 01:22:36 pm
Sorry for the late post. It looks like cp8759 has already posted.

A huge, big, thank you to cp8759.
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: cp8759 on November 13, 2023, 12:33:51 pm
DNC'ed.
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: cp8759 on October 23, 2023, 09:49:00 pm
Hearings are done remotely, and to be honest in 99% of cases you don't need to attend at all.

I'll drop you a PM.
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: ReflectoR on October 23, 2023, 03:01:17 pm
Well as they've not reoffered the discount, it is an absolute no-brainer to go to the tribunal: as long as no deadlines are missed the penalty cannot go up from here, it can only go down.

Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?

I think what you say is correct, its a no-brainer now. I am just concerned over whether I will need to take time off of work to show up to a court or somewhere physically? What are the steps that need to be taken? And what kind of grounds would I be appealing this? So many questions!

What would the cost of representation be? And the NTO itself is in my wife's name, would she need to get involved as well?
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: cp8759 on October 20, 2023, 11:24:24 pm
Well as they've not reoffered the discount, it is an absolute no-brainer to go to the tribunal: as long as no deadlines are missed the penalty cannot go up from here, it can only go down.

Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: ReflectoR on October 19, 2023, 05:17:26 pm
Hello everyone, thank you for all the help so far!

I've got a response to my appeal to the NTO. Its a rejection, and I've uploaded Islington's response.

(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/page1.jpeg)

(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/page2.jpeg)

(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/page3.jpeg)
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: ReflectoR on September 22, 2023, 02:39:26 pm
@cp8759

I've submitted it, under my wife's name, and kept a screenshot.

Thank you for your help.

Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: cp8759 on September 20, 2023, 10:07:19 pm
The only two concerns I have. Firstly the date mentioned on the letter is 14th September. But in your response you've put 18th. I am guessing this was on purpose, but I am just double checking.
A letter posted on the 14th is deemed served on the 18th i.e. two working days later (Saturday and Sunday don't count).

None of the pre-NTO correspondence adds anything.
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: John U.K. on September 19, 2023, 06:44:29 pm
In your wife's name - it's responding to Notice to Owner
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: ReflectoR on September 19, 2023, 05:55:22 pm
Also would I be sending this in as the reciever of the NtO (which is my wife), or under my name (I was the driver)?

Thank you again. I put this in a new post because the previous one got very long.
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: ReflectoR on September 19, 2023, 05:37:45 pm
Draft representations:

Dear London Borough of Islington,

I refer your to my informal representation in the first instance, which I require you to consider afresh.

Further to this, I refer you to the statutory guidance issued by the Secretary of State for Transport under section 87 of the Traffic Management Act 2004, that guidance states that:

The NtO may be issued 28 days after serving the penalty charge, and we expect authorities to send them within 56 days. The ultimate time limit, in exceptional circumstances, is 6 months from the ‘relevant date’. There should be a very good reason for waiting that long to serve an NtO.

In this case the regulations provide that a notice to owner may not be served after the expiry of the period of 6 months beginning with the date on which the relevant penalty charge notice was served, which was 19 March 2023. As the Notice to Owner was served on 18 September 2023, one day before the end of the legal time limit, it is apparent that it has been served at the very end of the six month period.

It is now for the council to explain what exceptional circumstances justify such extreme tardiness, or else why the authority has departed from the statutory guidance. Of course the statutory guidance is not binding, and the authority may depart from it, but the authority would need to explain why it has chosen to do so.

If the authority cannot articulate any exceptional circumstances to justify such late service of the notice to owner, or any other reasons which explain why it has departed from the statutory guidance, it can be inferred that the authority simply failed to have regard to the guidance.

Failure to have regard to the guidance is a procedural impropriety contrary to section 87(2) of the Traffic Management Act 2004, on the basis of which the penalty charge notice would have to be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Put this all in a PDF and upload it to the council as an attachment, in order to preserve indentation and italics formatting. Keep a screenshot of the confirmation screen.

Thank you. I will put it in a PDF now.

The only two concerns I have. Firstly the date mentioned on the letter is 14th September. But in your response you've put 18th. I am guessing this was on purpose, but I am just double checking.

Secondly I did not post the final two corrsepondances with the council before the NTO, because I didn't think it relevant anymore. But just in case it is here is the rest of the timeline.

Sent an informal representation (I forget what its called) 17th July 23


Dear Islington Council,

Thank you for your response and the additional context provided. I would like to address the points raised in your letter.

I have attached a document to this email that illustrates my concerns regarding the signage implemented by Islington council. As you can see, the attached images clearly demonstrate that the signage is inadequate on one side of the road. This deficiency in signage raises doubts about the fairness of issuing fines when drivers are not adequately informed about upcoming fixtures and related restrictions.

It is essential to ensure that signage is consistent, visible, and present on both sides of the road to effectively communicate information to drivers and avoid potential misunderstandings. Additionally, I must express my dissatisfaction with the response provided regarding the outdated contact details on the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN). It is disheartening to encounter such oversights that can significantly hinder the appeals process. Clear and accurate information is essential for individuals seeking to navigate the system properly, and I trust that this concern will be addressed promptly to rectify the situation. Regarding the discrepancy between the dates shown on the signs in the letter and the pictures taken for the fine on my car, I find this inconsistency concerning. It is crucial to maintain accurate and reliable information to ensure fairness and transparency in the enforcement process. I kindly request clarification on this matter to address the discrepancies and ensure a fair resolution.

In conclusion, I respectfully disagree with your decision to uphold the charge. The attached document clearly highlights the deficiencies in signage, and the discrepancy in dates raises concerns about the accuracy of the evidence provided.

I kindly request a thorough reconsideration of the matter, taking these factors into account and addressing the issue of outdated contact details promptly. I hope you can understand my position and address the concerns raised.

I look forward to your reconsideration and a fair resolution to this matter.

Yours sincerely, [My Name]

P.s. I must also add that the signs shown are two pictures of the same sign on the same side of the road. It is not clear where those signs are located.

Response dated 15th August 23

Thank you for contacting us about the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
I understand that you are disappointed with our decision to uphold this PCN. I acknowledge
your comments, however, if you wish to appeal this PCN further you will need to wait for the
Notice to Owner.

You should now choose one of the following options:

Pay the penalty charge of £130.00.

Or

Wait for a Notice to Owner (NtO) to be issued to the registered keeper of the vehicle,
who is legally responsible for paying the penalty charge. Any further correspondence
received prior to the NtO being issued may not be responded to.
The NtO gives the recipient the right to make formal representations against the penalty
charge. If we reject those representations, there will be the right of appeal to the
Environment and Traffic Adjudicator.
You can make a credit or debit card payment on our automated payment line on 020 7527
8000 at any time. You can also pay online at www.islington.gov.uk. If you prefer to pay by
cheque, please make it payable to LB Islington and send it to the address at the top of this
letter. Please write the PCN number on the back of the cheque. You may also send postal
orders (quoting the PCN number).

Yours sincerely
A ZAKARIA
Correspondence and Appeals Officer

To which I responded on the 15th August 23

Dear Zakariyyah,

Thank you for your response. But it did not address any of the concerns raised in my previous correspondence. Furthermore, the fine has risen to 130, when it was on hold for 65. In your automatic acknowledgment email it states "The PCN will be placed on hold until we reply". My last correspondence was made whilst the PCN was on hold at 65.

I have copied in my previous response below, so that you may address them. Thank you and kind regards.

"Dear Islington Council,

Thank you for your response and the additional context provided. I would like to address the points raised in your letter.

I have attached a document to this email that illustrates my concerns regarding the signage implemented by Islington council. As you can see, the attached images clearly demonstrate that the signage is inadequate on one side of the road. This deficiency in signage raises doubts about the fairness of issuing fines when drivers are not adequately informed about upcoming fixtures and related restrictions. It is essential to ensure that signage is consistent, visible, and present on both sides of the road to effectively communicate information to drivers and avoid potential misunderstandings.

Additionally, I must express my dissatisfaction with the response provided regarding the outdated contact details on the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN). It is disheartening to encounter such oversights that can significantly hinder the appeals process. Clear and accurate information is essential for individuals seeking to navigate the system properly, and I trust that this concern will be addressed promptly to rectify the situation.

Regarding the discrepancy between the dates shown on the signs in the letter and the pictures taken for the fine on my car, I find this inconsistency concerning. It is crucial to maintain accurate and reliable information to ensure fairness and transparency in the enforcement process. I kindly request clarification on this matter to address the discrepancies and ensure a fair resolution.

In conclusion, I respectfully disagree with your decision to uphold the charge. The attached document clearly highlights the deficiencies in signage, and the discrepancy in dates raises concerns about the accuracy of the evidence provided. I kindly request a thorough reconsideration of the matter, taking these factors into account and addressing the issue of outdated contact details promptly. I hope you can understand my position and address the concerns raised.

Yours sincerely,
[My Name]

P.S. I must also add that the signs shown are two pictures of the same sign on the same side of the road. It is not clear where those signs are located."

Their response was on 13th September 2023

Dear [My Name]

Location of Contravention Caledonian Road [Zone N]

Thank you for contacting us about the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
The PCN was issued as your vehicle was parked on a single yellow line within a Controlled
Parking Zone (CPZ).
Having reviewed your most recent correspondence and the evidence available to myself,
please be advised, the signage at the location clearly stipulates the restrictions. Signs in the
borough are designed in accordance with those prescribed in the Traffic Signs Regulations
and General Directions 2016. These are provided by the Department for Transport (DFT),
any variation to the guidance provided by the DFT would render the sign invalid.
I have also noted your comments with regards to the dissatisfaction regarding the outdated
contact details on the PCN, however, all responses made to the outdated contact details do
advise of any changes, and how to appeal.
I appreciate if you may be disappointed with our decision, please be advised, should you
wish to contest the matter further, I would have to advise to please await the Notice to Owner
(NtO) to arrive via post. Please do not respond to this correspondence as it will only delay
the appeals process. The NtO will establish liability for the PCN and the grounds under
which representations may be made. If representations are made at this stage and they are
rejected, there will be the right of appeal to an independent Environment and Traffic
Adjudicator. We have now let the case off hold to allow it to progress to the next stage.
Please note, any further correspondence prior to the receipt of the NtO may not be
responded to.

However, should you choose to, you can make a credit or debit card payment on our
automated payment line on 020 7527 8000 at any time. You can also pay online at
www.islington.gov.uk. If you prefer to pay by cheque, please make it payable to LB Islington
and send it to the address at the top of this letter. Please write the PCN number on the back
of the cheque. You may also send postal orders (quoting the PCN number).

Yours sincerely

Mo Ali
Correspondence and Appeals Officer

After this the NTO came in the post.

Would this make a difference to the letter you wrote?

Thank you very much for all of your help.
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: Incandescent on September 18, 2023, 10:51:59 pm
In particular, the 2022 Statutory Guidance on Parking contains this, (in the Introduction) : -
Quote
Local authorities will be expected to explain any decision not to implement the terms of the guidance, and adjudicators may consider it to be a procedural impropriety, sufficient to allow an appeal if no sufficient explanation is provided.
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: cp8759 on September 18, 2023, 10:36:04 pm
Draft representations:

Dear London Borough of Islington,

I refer your to my informal representation in the first instance, which I require you to consider afresh.

Further to this, I refer you to the statutory guidance issued by the Secretary of State for Transport under section 87 of the Traffic Management Act 2004, that guidance states that:

The NtO may be issued 28 days after serving the penalty charge, and we expect authorities to send them within 56 days. The ultimate time limit, in exceptional circumstances, is 6 months from the ‘relevant date’. There should be a very good reason for waiting that long to serve an NtO.

In this case the regulations provide that a notice to owner may not be served after the expiry of the period of 6 months beginning with the date on which the relevant penalty charge notice was served, which was 19 March 2023. As the Notice to Owner was served on 18 September 2023, one day before the end of the legal time limit, it is apparent that it has been served at the very end of the six month period.

It is now for the council to explain what exceptional circumstances justify such extreme tardiness, or else why the authority has departed from the statutory guidance. Of course the statutory guidance is not binding, and the authority may depart from it, but the authority would need to explain why it has chosen to do so.

If the authority cannot articulate any exceptional circumstances to justify such late service of the notice to owner, or any other reasons which explain why it has departed from the statutory guidance, it can be inferred that the authority simply failed to have regard to the guidance.

Failure to have regard to the guidance is a procedural impropriety contrary to section 87(2) of the Traffic Management Act 2004, on the basis of which the penalty charge notice would have to be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Put this all in a PDF and upload it to the council as an attachment, in order to preserve indentation and italics formatting. Keep a screenshot of the confirmation screen.
Title: Finally got the NTO. Undecided what to do
Post by: ReflectoR on September 18, 2023, 02:55:21 pm
So I finally got the NTO, just shy of 6 months by like 4 days or something.

I am wondering if I should take it to tribunal or not.

I have included a picture of it. What do you think? Should I? If I call the council usually theres a chance to still pay the reduced fine over the phone.

In one of the council's previous responses they said:
"It would obviously be impractical to change every sign for all locations affected by events."

I wonder if this gives me any ammunition?

(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/nto.jpg)
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: cp8759 on July 19, 2023, 03:47:34 pm
Photo from the council:

(https://i.imgur.com/6onn81f.png)

You could argue that the sign has more information that you can reasonably take in, but unless the council makes a procedural error it would be a gamble to risk the full amount at the tribunal based just on that.
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: ReflectoR on July 18, 2023, 09:52:12 am
Thank you.
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: cp8759 on July 17, 2023, 11:21:49 pm
No, as long as you challenge the Notice to Owner within 14 days of issue, they will reinstate the discount against, so you might as well have another go. In the meantime I will see if they have relevant photos of the gateway signs on Brewery Road.
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: ReflectoR on July 17, 2023, 10:14:05 pm
I didn't order them, I just parked up, went to the shop, bought some stuff, including a bag of onions.
Going shopping isn't loading, so that argument's gone.

 ;D

This made me laugh. You're right.

So does this mean I should pay whilst it is still at the discounted rate?
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: cp8759 on July 16, 2023, 09:48:54 pm
I didn't order them, I just parked up, went to the shop, bought some stuff, including a bag of onions.
Going shopping isn't loading, so that argument's gone.
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: ReflectoR on July 15, 2023, 01:34:55 pm
I didn't order them, I just parked up, went to the shop, bought some stuff, including a bag of onions.
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: cp8759 on July 13, 2023, 11:22:50 pm
Had you ordered them in advance, or did you choose them at the time?

You can make another representation but you have to wait for the Notice to Owner first, as their last letter tells you.
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: ReflectoR on July 13, 2023, 09:23:19 am
They were just a bag of onions, like those orange net bags with like say maybe 2 kilos worth of onions (weight may be off).

Could I not write one final representation to them? Get them to cancel it, and prevent it from going to tribunal stage?

I wanted to include the poor signage into the equation (if it is actually poor).

LK556CSZ - IZ25396929

Kind regards
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: cp8759 on July 12, 2023, 10:28:44 pm
Well the good news is that the discount will be re-offered at the Notice to Owner stage provided that your formal representations are received by the council within 14 days of the date of issue, so there's little risk in carrying on as long as you have the V5C and the address is up to date.

How many onions are we talking about, and were they pre-ordered or did you pick them at the time?

Also, please give us the PCN number and number plate.
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: ReflectoR on July 12, 2023, 06:02:13 pm
Sorry for the delayed response, I wasn't sure how to present the responses. I've just made the PDFs into JPGs. My representations are in green, just copied and pasted.

Representations made on 9/04/23
Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to appeal Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) XXXXXX, VRN XXXXXXX. That I received on 19/03/2023 for the contravention of parking on a single yellow line on Caledonian Road.

I would like to explain the circumstances surrounding the incident and request that the PCN be cancelled. On the day in question, I parked my vehicle on a single yellow line on Caledonian Road in order to quickly load a bag of onions from U.See.In. Continental, located at 419-421 Caledonian Rd, London N7 9BQ. Although I was unaware that this area was restricted at the time, to begin with, as it was a Sunday, I believe that the circumstances surrounding my parking were exceptional.

Furthermore, the warden who issued the PCN acknowledged that I was loading or unloading goods at the time by placing notes on the system. He stated you will be able to check this on the system. I feel as if it was unfair to not give any grace period or loading/unloading time on a single yellow.

I would like to request that you cancel the PCN and provide me with a confirmation of cancellation. I appreciate your understanding and look forward to your prompt response. Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Sincerely, [my name].

Council's Response 27/04/23
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/RDY01Reply27Apr.jpg)

My Response 12/05/23

Hi, this is the evidence requested. The link provided does not work and keeps showing error. As shown in the screenshot I've attached a screenshot. I've also uploaded proof of a transaction at the shop mentioned. As I never asked for receipt as you normally don't at these smaller shops. I am sure you will appreciate due to the way card transaction sometimes work the payment shows as the next day.

The evidence I attached:
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/siteerrormessage.jpg)
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/transaction.jpg)

Council's Response 25/05/23
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/RDY02Reply25May.jpg)

Representations Made again 26/05/23

Dear Islington,

I have provided evidence of my story, and I also urge you to check the notes on the PCN which should have been put on there by the CEO.

Furthermore, I would like to add, there were no signs or indications in place to say there were restrictions in place. To the contrary, the signs indicate you can park on a Sunday with no issues. It is not reasonable to assume someone would have access to the Internet to check whether there is a match going on, and it is not reasonable to assume someone even understands enough about football to find what they're looking for.

Please could you provide images showing there were restrictions taking place on that day?

Furthermore, you updated your appeals process but failed to mention this on the back of the PCN, where it lists the old way still. I had to find this out myself, after appealing the old way and not getting any response. Not even an automated response to say that there is a new way to appeal.

I cannot understand why the PCN has risen to £130 while I gave my response? I have attached a screenshot of the site not working as expected for me to have responded sooner. It should have stayed on hold, even when I was submitting my response I could see it was still on £65.

Council's Response 9/06/23
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/RDY03Reply9June.jpg)

My Reply 10/06/23
Thank you for your response, However you have not answered why the fine is at £130 as opposed to the reduced amount, as I had appealed it in time. And was delayed in submitting thr evidence due to your site not working. Evidence for which was already submitted. Furthermore, you have not checked the notes from the CEO who has issued the PCN. Thirdly you did not address the issue that the PCN does not show the correct way to appeal. Regards,

Council's Response 30/06/23 (latest)
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/RDY04Reply30June.jpg)
Title: Re: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: cp8759 on July 06, 2023, 10:18:58 pm
Please post *all* the correspondence you've sent to the council (including any evidence you supplied) and *all* their responses.

Apparently you're claiming the loading exemption but we can't really say much without getting into the details of what was being loaded, where from / to, how long it took etc, so having a look at your representations and their responses in full is the best place to start.

Also you've not made any appeals, you're only made representations. It only becomes an appeal at the tribunal stage.
Title: Islington PCN - Zone N - Contravention 01
Post by: ReflectoR on July 06, 2023, 04:35:57 pm
Thank you all for your help in advance, I know this is a bit long, so I hope you will bear with me, I've tried my best to make it as succinct as possible. Images are towards the end of the post, including the latest rejection letter.

On a Sunday, I parked on a single yellow line without realising it was a match day. When I returned from the shops, the CEO was taking pictures. It was too late for him to cancel the PCN, apparently, but he did say he wrote notes on the PCN to say I was loading.

The contravention occurred in March and is currently on hold until July 18th, with a fine of £65. I have made multiple appeals, which I will outline below, and I have attached the latest reply from June 30th, which extended the PCN hold until July 18th.

With your help, I am attempting one final time to get this PCN cancelled or determine if I should take it to a tribunal or simply pay while I still have the chance at the discounted rate.

Here are some important points to note:

1. The process for appealing Islington PCNs has changed. Previously, appeals were made via a specific email shown on the back of the PCN. Now, appeals must be submitted through the Islington website using a webform. However, this change is not clearly communicated on the PCN, which still shows the old method. Initially, I sent my appeal via email and received no reply until I discovered the new process and submitted my appeal online on April 9th, within the time limit.

2. The vehicle is registered in my wife's name, but I was the driver. I submitted the appeal under my name, and initial correspondence was addressed to me. However, it suddenly switched to addressing my wife instead of me. I'm unsure how they obtained her name since it was not at the NTO stage.

Please refer to the timeline below for a summary of events:

- March 19, 2023: PCN issued

- April 9, 2023: PCN appealed

- April 27, 2023: Received a reply requesting evidence by May 11, 2023

- May 12, 2023: Submitted evidence, delayed due to the Islington PCN submission page being down. Provided a screenshot as proof. Fine increased to £130.

- May 25, 2023: Appeal rejected, PCN still at £130. Correspondence addressed to my wife, despite using only my name in the appeal.

- May 26, 2023: Submitted a second appeal, explaining the unfair increase to £130 and the lack of response to my previous concerns.

- June 9, 2023: Second appeal rejected, addressed to me. Previous appeal points ignored, with a simple statement of "we've rejected this appeal before."

- June 10, 2023: Submitted a third appeal, requesting photos of the gateway signs for match day.

- June 30, 2023: Appeal rejected for the third time, providing additional information and responses to my previous points. Included extra photos of the match day sign, but not from the same day, with no indication of which one it was.

Images:

These are the council photos of my vehicle.
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/190323vehicle1.jpg)
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/190323vehicle2.jpg)
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/190323vehicle3.jpg)
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/190323vehicle4.jpg)
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/190323vehicle5.jpg)

Map of where I entered from, arrow shows my direction of travel from Brewery road, right onto Caledonian Road.
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/zoneentrymap.png)

Pictures of the gateway signs on Brewery Road
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/mdsigns1.jpg)
---
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/mdsigns3.jpeg)
---
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/mdsigns2.jpeg)
---
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/mdsigns4.jpeg)
---
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/mdsigns5.jpeg)

Pictures of PCN

Front
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/frontofpcnclean.jpg)
Back
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/backofpcnclean.jpg)

Latest reply 30th June
Page 1/2
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/00reply30june.jpg)
Page 2/2
(https://u.cubeupload.com/rtx/00replyjune302.jpg)