Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: SpeakUp on March 21, 2024, 07:16:53 pm
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Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RLdt8YJnnrjST8XSeUw1Top7vPCRExP-/view).
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H C Anderson and cp8759
Thank you for your replies. cp8759 I'll reply to your PM.
Regards
SpeakUp
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@SpeakUp I have, again, fixed the images you posted above.
Procedurally speaking the position is crystal clear: you must respond to the tribunal by 14 June (by email, you cannot risk any postal issues) or else the tribunal will simply issue a direction to pay and you will lose the right to appeal.
At this point your options are to respond yourself based on the documentation you already have, or follow the instructions in my PM and let me sort this out for you.
If you are going to do it yourself, I suggest you post a draft on here in the first instance.
Whatever route you go down, as H C Andersen points out, you must respond or else you will be ordered to pay and that will be the end of the matter, which would be hugely unfair but there would be no coming back from that.
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I'm still unclear where you are procedurally.
As I explained, the substantive issues of the contravention are irrelevant and who did what, when and how and who responded or not to whatever letters were sent by whoever unless the adjudicator registers your case as an appeal. So far we haven't seen anything from the tribunal which states that the case has been registered, instead we've seen their letter directing you to substantiate your witness statement and unless you respond to this by the deadline date then the case would not proceed to appeal and the adjudicator could and IMO would direct that you pay the full penalty or even the charge certificate penalty to TfL. No ifs or buts, pay.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/regulation/23/made
So, have you provided what's been asked for? It's straightforward as all you should need is a copy of your reps plus a copy of TfL's log showing these were received, considered and responded to.
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Hi H C Andersen,
Thank you for your post.
Here's the problem, it's first time ever that I've received a TFL PCN after driving for 30+years. The council PCN gives you details on how to go to a website and view CCTV footage. I thought this was a scam, so I went onto TFL website for PCN to request for the footage. Also I had sent a letter in post which I forgot about completely, but the letter was in my nick name Bhupi Kaur insead of Miss Bhupinder Pannu (kaur is my middle name) but the address was same. TFL didn't send me CCTV footage until I called them up in March 2024. However, they wrote to me on 2/1/2024, it's a letter that I never received, I've just seen in the evidence pack. When I received the dated 29/1/2024 I was away training and when I returned, I didn't understand why they were referring to third party authorisation and just wrote a letter asking for CCTV footage.
TFL cannot just send out letters demanding money, how does one know if it's a scam company sending out fake PCNs or genuine one? I know so many people that have been scammed, and somebody nearly lost their house because a scammer took out a mortgage while the couple were on holiday for 2 weeks. I am always suspicious of any type of communication without evidence. That's why I might've sent a letter in my nick to get the footage.
TLF's signs and some of the other road signs are confusing nowadays. How do they expect us to read and understand the road signs while driving on dual carriageway, whilst following a digital map and look for the address at the same time? On 23.11.2023 I was doing a favour for a disabled so I had locate a shop. I was following my digital map, I stopped when I reached my destination. I had to stop as I missed the confusing sign, got out of my car and tried to understand it. I didn't understand the sign so I asked in the shop and moved the car straightaway. The footage shows 2 mins, I thought 3 minutes were allowed. I won't bother helping anyone anymore, the Govt. or/and TFL can send their teams to help the vulnerable all the time.
I've stopped many times in the council parking bays for a few minutes to read the signs and the parking charges/times. If the parking charges or times didn't suit me, I just moved the car and that's the end of it.
As attached letters
1) to TFL I forgot I had written (in evidence pack)
(https://i.imgur.com/bp60UO8.jpeg)
2) from TFL letter dtd 2/1/2024 (in evidence pack)
(https://i.imgur.com/VHJcx8u.jpeg)
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OP, IMO we need clarification from you lest you go off in the wrong direction.
You posted: I've contacted the London Tribunal and they've emailed the letter to me. I've followed all the steps and the Tribunal have started to communicate via email. I've received their letter but the evidence from TFL has come in the post.
Which letter, theirs of 31 May which is in your last post and requires you to substantiate your witness statement? If so, have you and if so pl post the tribunal's confirmation that the matter has been registered as an appeal.
Until you receive this, TfL (let alone the tribunal) are not under any obligation to provide you with anything. Pl just deal with this point because so far nothing you've posted suggests that your case is to be heard as an appeal.
Please read regulation 23 here, in particular 7 and 8.
Let's be clear about where you are in this procedure.
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I phoned the tribunal and they said the same thing again that the evidence is sent directly by TFL.
Oh dear, it sounds like maybe you spoke to a new member of staff who isn't up to speed on how things work. I'll message you directly to sort this out.
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(https://i.imgur.com/q6rfvvj.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/s7uq58Y.jpeg)
link to ETA letter 2 pages
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I tried attaching the letter from tribunal but unable to do so, the message I get is folder full.
Attachment space on the forum is limited. Have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and follow the guidance there.
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Hi cp8759,
I phoned the tribunal and they said the same thing again that the evidence is sent directly by TFL. I called TFL and they said they only have a hard copy they don't have pdf. or any other formats.
I tried attaching the letter from tribunal but unable to do so, the message I get is folder full.
SpeakUp
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@SpeakUp the tribunal has a PDF copy of the TFL evidence, so rather that faffing about with the paper copy just call the tribunal again tomorrow and ask them to email you the whole evidence pack.
Also post up the tribunal letter.
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Hi cp8759,
I've contacted the London Tribunal and they've emailed the letter to me. I've followed all the steps and the Tribunal have started to communicate via email. I've received their letter but the evidence from TFL has come in the post.
Could you please let me know, what action I need to take now?
SpeakUp
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CP8759
I posted the reply on 22/5/2024 from TEC Northampton County Courts regarding the cancellation of the Charge Certificate.
SpeakUp
@SpeakUp yes, I did read your response.
You now need to follow the steps here please: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/ground-2-witness-statements-statutory-declarations-accepted-by-the-traffic-enfor/
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CP8759
I posted the reply on 22/5/2024 from TEC Northampton County Courts regarding the cancellation of the Charge Certificate.
SpeakUp
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@SpeakUp please follow the instructions here https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/ground-2-witness-statements-statutory-declarations-accepted-by-the-traffic-enfor/ and let us know once the PCN has been referred to the tribunal.
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Hi CP8759,
Thank you for your reply. TFL have updated their website today 28/5. I have attached the update. The amount outstanding now is £160.
SpeakUp
[attachment deleted by admin]
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@SpeakUp at the moment the website says this:
(https://i.imgur.com/yycMMCA.png)
Keep an eye on the PCN status on https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn-details and let us know as soon as anything changes. Please tag me when you next reply.
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Hi CP8759,
As attached, I have received a reply from TEC and they have:-
(1) Ordered the recovery for the unpaid penalty charge be revoked.
(2) Ordered the Charge Certificate be cancelled.
Thanks
SpeakUp
[attachment deleted by admin]
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HC Anderson,
I can now reply to your post as I am back in UK.
"While TEC are dealing with your witness statement pl provide your correspondence to TfL pre 2 Jan".
I had requested CCTV footage on TLF footage on 14th Dec 2023. TFL cannot reject the request for footage.
"As regards the contravention, I don't see any defence: you parked, you looked at the sign, you did not comply(i.e. drive away immediately) but instead went into the shop (presumably the cake shop which was your destination anyway)."
I did attach all the correspondence rec'd and sent in my 2nd or 3rd post here. I thought I didn't receive the CCTV footage due to the postal strike, but when I phoned tfl and asked why they issued the Charge certificate and not sent the CCTV footage, their staff couldn't give me a reason. I wanted the cctv footage as a link but received a CD in post instead and then I had to find a CD player.
Speak UP
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As I could not see you succeeding on this point, the procedural impropriety angle takes on greater significance.
I think the procedural impropriety ground makes it open and shut really.
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You and TfL seem to be operating in different worlds. Their timeline refers to them receiving reps and issuing a NoR while their later correspondence states that reps have not been received.
They and you refer to correspondence regarding CCTV but we've yet to see anything substantive i.e. no letters or emails from you to match the references in your first post.
While TEC are dealing with your witness statement pl provide your correspondence to TfL pre 2 Jan.
As regards the contravention, I don't see any defence: you parked, you looked at the sign, you did not comply(i.e. drive away immediately) but instead went into the shop (presumably the cake shop which was your destination anyway).
IMO, an adjudicator would find that as a driver you should have understood the sign - it's a standard 3-panel format of Red route:hours of operation:exemptions by type and time - and find that you did stop.
As I could not see you succeeding on this point, the procedural impropriety angle takes on greater significance.
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Hi cp8739
I have emailed the TE9 form to tec@justice.gov.uk. Now I'll wait and see what happens next.
Thank you for your help.
SpeakUp
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CP8759
I don't know what the bloat-post is, It's my first time I've ever posted on this forum, but I'll try to be careful.
Basically if you're quoting a previous reply, only leave in the bit you're specifically answering and delete everything else, otherwise we end up with a lot of duplicated content for no benefit.
On TFL's website, no further updates against the PCN. Do you know how long it takes for TFL to register the debt with the Traffic Enforcement Centre. The reason why I am asking this is that I'll be going abroad from 14/4 and returning on 14th May 2024. I just want this to be sorted out before 14th April so that my car's not taken away while I am away.
Are you taking a computer with you, or will you have access to one?
Normally TFL would register the debt within a few weeks, as long as you can check the TFL website once a week and send the email to tec at the right time, it doesn't really matter where in the world you are.
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CP8759
I don't know what the bloat-post is, It's my first time I've ever posted on this forum, but I'll try to be careful.
On TFL's website, no further updates against the PCN. Do you know how long it takes for TFL to register the debt with the Traffic Enforcement Centre. The reason why I am asking this is that I'll be going abroad from 14/4 and returning on 14th May 2024. I just want this to be sorted out before 14th April so that my car's not taken away while I am away.
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I was referring to the 2nd page of TE9 form.
Please don't bloat-post as it makes the thread hard to follow. Form TE9 is here (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1094491/Parking_TE9.pdf) and you can only fill in the front page, the 2nd page is just a set of instructions.
Once you've filled it in if you'd like you can send it to me privately and I can double-check that you've filled it in correctly.
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That
Not sure I understand this question: form TE9 is a witness statement.
I was referring to the 2nd page of TE9 form.
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Do I need to make a witness statement (the last two that are relevant to me refer to the Local Authority)?
Not sure I understand this question: form TE9 is a witness statement.
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Thanks cp8759 for your reply. I understand the next step better now. The PCN is still on stop since
15th March at charge of £240. I'll wait for the debt to be registered with the Taffic Enforcement Centre and then complete TE9 form.
Is this correct? On the TE9 form the box I'll tick is:
I made representations about the penalty
charge to the enforcing authority concerned
within 28 days of the service of the Notice to
Owner, but did not receive a rejection notice.
Do I need to make a witness statement (the last two that are relevant to me refer to the Local Authority)?
Thanks your help is much appreciated.
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@SpeakUp you have a charge certificate that you cannot appeal:
(https://i.imgur.com/LyJlCko.png)
Incidentally one of the reasons why we recommend imgur is because unlike other sites, you don't need an account at all: you can just follow the "new post" link in the top left.
This correspondence is helpful:
(https://i.imgur.com/Hrryt3t.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/pMM6G4s.png)
As it's the same name on both letters, they had no grounds for ignoring your representations, so their decision to do so is a procedural impropriety.
The next step is to wait for the debt to be registered with the traffic enforcement centre at which point the penalty will go up to £249, but you can then use form TE9 (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1094491/Parking_TE9.pdf) to get the charge certificate and the order for recovery cancelled. The case will then be referred to London Tribunals where the procedural impropriety should see the PCN get cancelled, this applies regardless of the rights and wrongs of the original contravention.
So you need to keep an eye on the penalty amount on the TFL website, as soon as it goes up to £249 you need to download and fill in form TE9 (remember the "applicant" isn't you, it's Transport for London) and email it to tec@justice.gov.uk with the PCN number in the subject line.
Let us know as soon as that's done and we'll explain the next steps. If anything isn't clear please ask.
In the meantime if anyone wants to have a look at the traffic orders they're here (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TuumOTSdAOKI2m2F5hP79eMXunjAkO29).
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Thanks Incandescent.
I tried to Sign-up with Imgur but it's not allowing me, the message I keep on getting is:
Email sign-up is not possible in your region. Register using a third-party service.
AS attached File it includes:-
1) PCN rec'd dtd 28/11/2023. On 14/12/2023 on TFL site I requested for the video footage.
2) Received letter dtd 29/1/2024 received reply to my request but no footage.
3) Wrote on 14/2/2024 again requested the footage
4) Rec'd letter dtd 21/2/2024 but no Footage.
5) Rec'd Charge certificate but no video footage dated 12/3/2024.
6) I phoned on 14/3/2024, eventually rec'd video footage on 20/3/2024 with letter dtd 18/3/2024
2nd file shows list of actions on TFL site. I didn't receive any correspondence dated 2/1/2024.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/3ZmJPZYyryFGgMxE6
[attachment deleted by admin]
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What is the GSV link?
Google Street View
Here is a typical link: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/qVaffRyJjKMNCCmy6
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Hi John,
I'll post copies of the documents tomorrow. What is the GSV link?
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For meaningful advice please have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and post up a timeline with all sides of all paperwork (redact only name and address)
and a GSV link to the location.
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Hi
I need help Urgently with a red route PCN.GX11486352 Contravention 46.
On 23/11/2023 I was following my Sat Nav to locate a cake shop. I reached there at 18.26.05 and stopped in a bay to check the parking timing and the restrictions, but I didn't understand it. I went into the shop to ask about parking there, and she told me to park somewhere else. Within 2mins I moved my car and parked on a road without restrictions. It took me longer than it should've done but it's a dual carriageway and it takes longer to get in and out of the car and drive off.
In Dec 2023 I received the PCN, I was shocked to get a PCN for stopping to check the timing and restrictions. Their boards are confusing, how else can one find out when to park there? No link or CD in post for the video footage, (this is how the scammers work).
In the following week, I requested (online) the footage. In February 2024 I received a written reply (dated 29/1/2024) but no video footage.
On 14/2/2024 I sent a letter in the post, again requesting the video footage. At the end of Feb 2024, I received a reply (dtd 21/2/2024), saying a contravention footage has been raised under a separate cover. Still no footage received.
In March 2024 I received a Charge Certificate (dtd 12/3/2024). I was so angry, I phoned them up and said I've asked for the video footage number of times. You're acknowledging my request but choosing to ignore it. Why? She agreed but had no answer, but she was able to send me the video in the post.
Today 21/3/2024 I have actually received the video footage and it confirms that I was there for 2minutes only.
This is crazy, on dual carriageway parking bays, how else can one make sense of the restrictions and timing unless you stop there? I think TFL wants people to read the confusing boards whilst driving rather than to concentrate on other traffic and pedestrians and at the same figure out if parking there is allowed or not. Why have parking bays there? The restriction makes the bays dangerous.
Thank you