Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on March 19, 2024, 08:49:09 pm

Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on April 25, 2024, 04:07:47 pm
Ah amazing, thank you so much I failed miserably to find this! They never make these things easy.

It is done, submitted. My heart is pounding (confrontation is not my strong point) but keen to see what happens here. They claim a reply within 15 working days so fingers crossed.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: slapdash on April 25, 2024, 03:51:27 pm
https://councilparking.org/herefordshire/pages/OnlineChallengeEntry.aspx

If you press enough buttons you should end up at this page. The second option claims to allow a formal challenge.

Good luck

Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on April 25, 2024, 02:10:45 pm
Try here:

https://www.herefordshire.gov.uk/parking-1/parking-fines/2

Ah yes unfortunately this only seems to allow me to lodge the informal appeal for the PCN rather than formal appeal for the NTO
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: slapdash on April 25, 2024, 02:08:29 pm
Try here:

https://www.herefordshire.gov.uk/parking-1/parking-fines/2
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on April 25, 2024, 12:50:14 pm
Send the representations online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page. If for some reason the representation won't fit because of a character limit, put it in a PDF document and upload it as an attachment and in the text box write "see attached representation".

I have at last gathered my composure and was ready to submit all of this but there doesn't seem to be any way to do so online; the only option listed on the letter is by post. I have looked through the Herefordshire Council website and all the documentation and I can't seem to find anything. Would it be okay to print this, write "See attached representation" in the rather small text box on the NTO and post it off or is it much better to do this online somehow?
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: sparxy on April 25, 2024, 02:55:48 am
Given what a HC CEO gave my relative a PCN for, when parking with a BB, I'm not surprised at all.

Turbulent, cp will guide you well. Please don't get stressed with it, go with the process and give them everything they deserve. Not just for you, but for every BB holder in the county.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on April 22, 2024, 02:25:17 pm
As you may recall i said i would deal with this for you, it seems there is a queue. CP is top notch and you will be very well served by him

Really all you have to do is communicate with him so he has all the info he will need, sit back and wait for the win. ( i have never been more sure of a win in the 000s of cases i have helped with)

Ahhh! I replied to your greatly appreciated comment a few days ago with the NTO, I was in such a spin processing everything that I was reading, I didn't even clock that the response had come from a different username ;D Thank you for the vote of confidence with CP and for the reassurance! I was so convinced that I had no hope with all of this, the officer was so adamant that what I was doing was wrong either way I felt there was no way out. Being autistic myself I can get overly stressed about the silliest little things, I hate it but I can't help it. It was *literally* all I thought about for weeks. You are all wonderful people and will never know how much this means to me.

Why would it ever be wrong to park to collect someone? The advisory leaflet is very open ended about it, presumably OF COURSE because there is so much variation when you are caring for people with complex needs. I am kicking myself for answering that call (I thought it might have been his school) and even more so for turning back around to entertain that bullying officer instead of just waiting for my family as planned. Rant over!
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on April 22, 2024, 02:04:16 pm
This is wrong on so many levels, if it was just the Parking officer it would have been one thing but the OP received a call from what I guess is the council and they seemed to have no clue.

As it happens, on top of the angry call from whoever it was, the officer actually radioed someone for advice while I was stood there. I couldn't hear the other side but after explaining the situation he said something along the effect of "Yes, I agree. I'll do that."
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Pastmybest on April 22, 2024, 11:57:54 am
As you may recall i said i would deal with this for you, it seems there is a queue. CP is top notch and you will be very well served by him

Really all you have to do is communicate with him so he has all the info he will need, sit back and wait for the win. ( i have never been more sure of a win in the 000s of cases i have helped with)
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: S.M on April 22, 2024, 11:55:07 am
Quote
but the CEO told me that anything other than the badge holder being present in the car on arrival was an offense
Totally and utterly, wrong. Wrong, WRONG !!!!

This is wrong on so many levels, if it was just the Parking officer it would have been one thing but the OP received a call from what I guess is the council and they seemed to have no clue.

I would raise this as a formal complaint to the council once they come to their senses.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: roythebus on April 21, 2024, 11:34:43 pm
Those laws can be very handy at times. :)  As the holder of a blue badge myself I find it useful most of the time even though I've got no visible disability, there's a lot of folk out there in a similar situation. But yes, best leave that as "dry powder".
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: cp8759 on April 21, 2024, 11:27:55 pm
I missed the bit as to who is the blue badge holder, you, your wife/your son?

It might also be worth the various disability discrimination acts that could be brought into play.
@roythebus see the thread title  :)

I think the Equality Act might come into it down the line when we pursue a formal complaint, but that will come into play after the PCN has been cancelled.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: roythebus on April 21, 2024, 11:20:51 pm
I missed the bit as to who is the blue badge holder, you, your wife/your son?

It might also be worth the various disability discrimination acts that could be brought into play.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on April 21, 2024, 10:48:13 pm
Very reassuring on both counts, thank you. I agree it's probably best not to dilute the core issue here.

evidence beyond reasonable doubt

This makes a lot of sense. I suppose using the badge of the recently deceased would be an open/shut case whereas using the badge for its intended purpose, perhaps not.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: cp8759 on April 21, 2024, 10:40:39 pm
The only part of your superbly strong letter that scares me a bit is the challenge for them to pursue further action, though they would be daft to do so. Considering how much sleep I have lost over something so relatively trivial I would feel sick if I thought I had coaxed them into additional battles.
I would not have put that in if I thought there was the remotest chance of them actually doing so, the likelihood of the council actually pursuing that is zero. This is not lease because while a PCN only needs evidence on the balance of probabilities, a charge of fraud would require evidence beyond reasonable doubt (which means that if the evidence were to show that you were probably misusing the blue badge that would not be enough because it would leave a chance that you might be innocent so a court would acquit you). There is also the fact that such charges would have to go through the council's legal department that employs people who have actually been to law school, rather than the bunch of clowns who work in parking enforcement, and there is no way a trained lawyer would touch this with a barge pole.

Is there any merit to mentioning the lack of required necessary information as mentioned by user Incandescent a few comments ago?
If we had nothing else the argument would be worth pursuing, however as far as I'm aware we've never actually won a tribunal case on that point, so I think that in the circumstances it would just distract from the main argument.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on April 21, 2024, 10:24:48 pm
@Turbulent-Pack-447 as you will notice, this is the sort of case that makes my blood boil and is the whole raison d'etre of this website

I am absolutely blown away by what you have done for me, I could actually cry. This is an amazing letter. I have never seen such kindness and your offer of further representation is deeply appreciated. You have quite the impressive resume in this area!! Since the moment I was accosted I have felt so alienated and alone. The lady on the phone sounded angry. The CEO was confrontational and kept telling me "This is important. This is important." when my nerves were already shot to shreds waiting for my family and wondering what kind of state everyone would be in. He even waved me into the space and I thanked him, it didn't occur to me that I was doing anything wrong. Thank you so so much.

One small detail I have since double checked is the number that called me on the day - This seems to be that of the Hereford Parking Enforcement office, maybe not the badge issuing office as I assumed, but these may be the same thing?

The only part of your superbly strong letter that scares me a bit is the challenge for them to pursue further action, though they would be daft to do so. Considering how much sleep I have lost over something so relatively trivial I would feel sick if I thought I had coaxed them into additional battles. I trust you of course!

Is there any merit to mentioning the lack of required necessary information as mentioned by user Incandescent a few comments ago? It sounds like your argument is enough on its own (and indeed, is the more important one!)

Again, my eternal thanks for your help and I cannot commend you enough for what you are doing for people like us.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: cp8759 on April 21, 2024, 01:52:16 pm
@Turbulent-Pack-447 as you will notice, this is the sort of case that makes my blood boil and is the whole raison d'etre of this website: it is an outrageous example of a deranged council, if you could only use a blue badge if the badge holder is present for both parts of the journey then blue badges would be useless for any disabled persons who cannot drive themselves, as it would be impossible for them to be picked up or dropped off by someone else.

This is the strongest representation I have probably ever drafted, but it is really warranted as there is no way somebody like you should be bullied into fear and submission by a local authority officer who should be redeployed to litter picking duties, or maybe to clean the public toilets. I am obviously offering to represent you at the tribunal should it come to that.

Dear Herefordshire Council,

Having taken legal advice, I challenge PCN HE53223388 on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur.

The starting point is that the blue badge was correctly displayed as you admit in the informal rejection letter of 15 March 2024.

On the day of the alleged contravention, my wife had called me and said our autistic child was having an extremely tough morning and that she thought it was best to take him out of school and drop him off with me so I could take him to a sensory play session, and then take him back to school hopefully much calmer.

I parked my car in a disabled bay, displayed the blue badge and clock, and walked immediately over to a spot in front of a shop to await their arrival. I got a call from the badge issuing office saying I was seen leaving the car without the badge holder and to go and speak to the Civil Enforcement Officer by the car. I went and explained that I was there to collect the badge holder and that they were on their way.

The Officer said that this is not acceptable as the holder has to be present for both parts of the journey, I now know that this is wrong but not having legal advice to hand at the roadside, I was unable to challenge his assertion (not that it would have made any difference anyway and he clearly hasn't been trained correctly, which is your fault).

I was (incorrectly) mortified and explained that I thought I could use the badge for picking up and dropping off (which I now know to be correct). I called my wife, but she didn't answer so the warden issued me a ticket. He did not confiscate the badge.

The officer said to come and find him if I could get hold of her. She eventually called back and explained that she had been quickly cleaning faeces from the bathroom wall that she had just discovered and was now collecting him to bring to me. I found the officer, who spoke to her and made a note of this.

He said I could stay in the space because I had been issued a ticket and couldn't be issued another one and, quite distressed, I said I would prefer to just move my car if I was using the badge incorrectly as he had stated (because I could not know at the time that the CEO was spouting nonsense because you, as his supervisors, are ignorant as to the law and have not trained him properly) and I didn't want to take up a space for somebody else. I spoke to my wife and we decided to collect him later and take him along to the later session instead as I was so distressed.

Looking back at your letter of 15 March 2024 with the benefit of legal advice it is now self-evident that that letter has been written by someone who is entirely ignorant of the relevant law and should be sent on a retraining course. I fear this might be the case of everyone working in your office because no blue badge holder should be worrying himself sick over an incorrectly issued penalty charge notice that has been caused entirely by a local authority whose officers do not know what they are doing.

The blue badge book issued by the Department for Transport clearly states that:

"The badge is for your use and benefit only. It must only be displayed if you are travelling in the vehicle as a driver or passenger, or if someone is collecting you or dropping you off and needs to park at the place where you are being collected or dropped."

Civil parking enforcement is meant to protect people who are legitimately using a blue badge for its intended purpose (as I was doing on the day in question), and you are doing the exact opposite of that, it is apparent that the people in your office are utterly ignorant of this guidance so you should actually take the time and effort to read it, you can find a copy here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-blue-badge-scheme-rights-and-responsibilities-in-england/the-blue-badge-scheme-rights-and-responsibilities-in-england

Furthermore, a blue badge is either on display or it isn't, if a valid blue badge is on display then a code 40 contravention cannot possibly occur. If you are satisfied that the blue badge was being used fraudulently, then you should have the courage of your convictions and you should prosecute me for fraud under the Fraud Act 2006 (good luck with that).

I have retained the services of Mr Ivan Murray-Smith (please do Google him if you don't know who he is) and he will be representing me at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal should you be foolish enough to issue a notice of rejection, and I should forewarn you now that should you issue a notice of rejection that notice will be challenged as being wholly unreasonable and I will be pursuing a costs order against you, even if you  decide not to contest the appeal.

On the other hand, it might be that a trip to the tribunal is needed in order to give you a bit of an education.

I look forward to your prompt response.

Yours faithfully,


We really should take the council to the cleaners for this. Even if they cancel the PCN, we should pursue a formal complaint and require that all officers involved be retrained.

Send the representations online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page. If for some reason the representation won't fit because of a character limit, put it in a PDF document and upload it as an attachment and in the text box write "see attached representation".

If you need any reassurance, you can Google me as well  :)
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on April 15, 2024, 08:32:53 am
Stop worrying i will deal with this for you just post the NTO when you get it

The NTO just arrived. I sincerely appreciate everyone's help and input so far I'm still worrying myself sick about all of this. (edit: there are two extra pages, photos of the car as parked - same ones from the reply to the informal appeal I posted - and photos the CEO took of the front and back of the blue badge)

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on April 04, 2024, 01:13:35 pm
Have not looked through these yet, but for when the NTO comes here are:

Sorry I didn't reply to your previous one - thank you so much for this I'll investigate 🙏
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: cp8759 on April 04, 2024, 01:10:34 pm
Have not looked through these yet, but for when the NTO comes here are:

The County of Herefordshire District Council (Various Roads, Ross-on-Wye) (Prohibition of Waiting) (Restricted Waiting) (Taxi Rank Stands) (Residents Parking) (Parking Zones RA, RB, RC and RD) Order 2005 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Qy6ds6mf8X-0jXDfjl6QVLG_Y7-njcPi/view)

The County of Herefordshire District Council (Broad Street Road and Station Street, Ross-on-Wye) (Taxi Rank & Prohibition and Restriction of Waiting) Order 2009 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WkctPcDzi0tVTQlf6toY1xWxFoiKENZt/view)

The Herefordshire Council (Various Roads, Ross on Wye) (Prohibition of Waiting) (Restricted Waiting) (Taxi Rank Stands) (Residents Parking) (Parking Zones RA, RB, RC and RD) Order 2005 (Amendment No.1) Order 2019 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fVCfiV_JymZEvPfm_HPSOv76r2XIQnP5/view)

The Herefordshire Council (Various Roads, Ross on Wye) (Prohibition of Waiting) (Restricted Waiting) (Taxi Rank Stands) (Residents Parking) (Parking Zones RA, RB, RC and RD) Order 2005 (Amendment No.2) Order 2019 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pPi3yR6Y9lIkESVIkWJIqg78MAEw2TaS/view)
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: cp8759 on March 31, 2024, 12:18:24 am
I have requested the traffic order, last time we had one of these in Herefordshire it turned out the traffic order for the bay didn't exist.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on March 20, 2024, 05:16:34 pm
a different location, presumably within walking distance


The meeting place is a twenty or so minute drive away and I was closer to there at the time than I was to home.

Quote
But why should the authority simply accept this without supporting evidence, and what evidence would convince them?

I appreciate you raising this and I'm concerned about gathering evidence as I find this very stressful. The school should be able to back the situation up and my employer should be able to confirm that I didn't come in that morning as planned because I had to pick up my son. The phone call wasn't anonymous, I showed him the contact on the screen. I'll see what I can get together.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: H C Andersen on March 20, 2024, 04:20:00 pm
OP, I don't want to place more burdens upon you, but at present I cannot follow your account entirely.

And as regards the events, the authority might well be sceptical about why, when you live next to the school, you arranged for your wife to bring your son to a different location, presumably within walking distance and therefore no distance by car, instead of just driving to the school/your house which must be far more convenient and a safer place to make the exchange than a shop on a High Street.

Sorry to mention this, but it's a glaring issue because at no time did the holder of the BB actually appear and all the CEO managed to do was to speak to an unknown person on the phone.

If there's an obvious reason to not meet at the house - perhaps you don't live there any more or whatever - then I think you might need to reveal. Alternatively, if the PCN omits the mandatory info then you could lead with this and outline the collection issue which would give them the opportunity to cancel other than by accepting that their printed PCNs are defective.

And as regards 'the PCN should never have been issued', the car was not used within the conditions applicable to parking in a disabled bay, all we have is your account of your intentions. But why should the authority simply accept this without supporting evidence, and what evidence would convince them?

From the school perhaps...'at approx. *** on ** a call was made to ****, the nominated contact person for ***, one of our pupils, advising/requesting ** and it was agreed that *** would collect him from school early..'
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Incandescent on March 20, 2024, 02:14:12 pm
Apart from the fact the PCN should never have been served in the first place, it is also flawed because it does not contain all the information mandated in the regulations: -

CHAPTER 1
Information to be included in regulation 9 penalty charge notices and enforcement notices

Information about right to make representations or appeal to be included in regulation 9 penalty charge notices and enforcement notices
3.—(1) A regulation 9 penalty charge notice must include the following information—

(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served may, in accordance with these Regulations, make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and, if those representations are rejected, appeal to an adjudicator;
(b)that if, before a notice to owner is served, representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified in the notice for the purpose those representations will be considered by the enforcement authority;
(c)that if a notice to owner is served despite the representations mentioned in sub-paragraph (b), representations against the penalty charge must be made to the enforcement authority in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2022/9780348232752/part/2/chapter/1
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on March 20, 2024, 01:34:54 pm
Please post the PCN your challenge and the response in full so we can help.

I found the PCN! I dismantled my glove box and found that it had fallen internally behind the middle part of the dashboard. Unbelievable.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on March 20, 2024, 08:44:56 am
Stop worrying i will deal with this for you just post the NTO when you get it

Thank you so much. I will do.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Pastmybest on March 20, 2024, 08:28:52 am
Stop worrying i will deal with this for you just post the NTO when you get it
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on March 20, 2024, 08:22:30 am
I just had a brief read through ad there seems to be a repeated theme. Despite assurances from several members you continue to worry about what the council and the CEO said; why?

I am sorry if I sound ungrateful, I am autistic myself and trivial things like this can upset me immensely and I can get quite fixated. I am so thankful for everyone's advice and solidarity and I feel much more reassured.

I have misplaced the PCN itself stupidly, I am continuing to search for it but it's not in the car where I thought it was. I was so distressed and rattled at the time. I have shared the informal rejection letter which is currently all I have.

I have never been in this kind of situation before. I am worried that they will report me to the badge issuing office for misuse of the badge and this would lead to a fraud criminal record and cost me my job. My biggest concern is that if I make the wrong move at this stage (ie. "just pay the fine") it'll condemn me in the future as it will look like I have admitted to using the badge for my own benefit.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Neil B on March 20, 2024, 08:02:31 am
Totally and utterly, wrong. Wrong, WRONG !!!!

That's what has since really upset me, you'll see on the Informal Appeal denial letter that they make the same point with some very confusing wording. I think his exact words on the day when I said "But I thought it was okay to use a badge if you're picking someone up?" were "No the badge holder has got to be present on both legs of the journey"
I just had a brief read through ad there seems to be a repeated theme. Despite assurances from several members you continue to worry about what the council and the CEO said; why?

Meanwhile, we are still waiting to see the PCN (in full) and the text of your initial challenge.

You can reassure your wife that such matters are not dealt with in 'court'. IF the council are foolish enough to reject a formal challenge then the matter goes to adjudication by the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, which does not incur any additional costs.
Hearings are relatively informal and can be conducted over the telephone if you wish.
I suspect it won't get that far  anyway.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: slapdash on March 20, 2024, 03:34:46 am
Your original plan was to meet your wife and child, who you expected to be there as arranged. Go  back to your car with your son and accompany him to sensory centre.

During the course of that events transpired to derail those plans. These particular things had to be dealt with immediately. You dealt with the fallout of those as the CEO was making things even more difficult.

The fact you could have made different arrangements is not relevant.

You were entitled to use the badge. You weren't parking up, going to do things for yourself and then meeting them later. 

I assume the V5c is in your name and has the correct address. A quick check would be prudent to avoid the possibility of the notice to owner going to the wrong address.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on March 20, 2024, 12:09:19 am
Totally and utterly, wrong. Wrong, WRONG !!!!

That's what has since really upset me, you'll see on the Informal Appeal denial letter that they make the same point with some very confusing wording. I think his exact words on the day when I said "But I thought it was okay to use a badge if you're picking someone up?" were "No the badge holder has got to be present on both legs of the journey"
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Incandescent on March 20, 2024, 12:05:14 am
Quote
but the CEO told me that anything other than the badge holder being present in the car on arrival was an offense
Totally and utterly, wrong. Wrong, WRONG !!!!
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on March 19, 2024, 11:23:27 pm
However, how long did the episode take ? It seems there may have been some delay.

If you parked, walked to the shop (how long) and then were waiting for your wife to bring him (how long) thats a bit different (but not necessarily misuse).

They called me within a couple of minutes of parking, maybe 4 minutes, I had barely arrived and didn't even have time to do any shopping if I wanted to. The "shop" is a good meeting place because it's right there by the high street where I parked and you can pull up easily and we could do the change over safely. Our house is basically next door to the school so it was easiest for her to get him and bring him to me. I assumed they were nearby but it turned out she was going to get him and leave but got held up slightly because of this toilet stuff. She explained to the CEO over the phone that she just had to clean up something gross. With everything going on with toilet and this ticket we decided to take him to a later sensory session instead. Even this worries me because I wonder if I should have stayed and insisted she bring him so it was more clear what we were doing, but the CEO told me that anything other than the badge holder being present in the car on arrival was an offense so I thought I was done for either way and didn't want to be commiting an offense by parking there anymore.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on March 19, 2024, 11:14:45 pm
Post what you have.  We can work on it, but I think they are bluffing their way now, as your use of the BB would seem to have been completely legal.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Incandescent on March 19, 2024, 11:03:02 pm
Post what you have.  We can work on it, but I think they are bluffing their way now, as your use of the BB would seem to have been completely legal.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on March 19, 2024, 10:58:49 pm
Please post the PCN your challenge and the response in full so we can help.

I can't believe this but I can't find the PCN now anywhere. I thought it was in my glove compartment but it is not, I'm worried I stuffed it somewhere in distress and it got thrown away. Has this ruined my chances? Can I get a duplicate? I have the rejection letter which has the PCN number, photos and some relevant information though if that would be enough? I will keep looking for the ticket
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Incandescent on March 19, 2024, 10:43:01 pm
Please post the documents requested by 'Pastmybest', they are essential to us giving full and good advice.

Do not be distressed or intimidated by your informal representations being rejected; councils reject virtually all of them, and also tell loads of tosh, even plain lies when doing so, because they know most people then cough-up, not knowing the law in any detail.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Pastmybest on March 19, 2024, 09:42:08 pm
Please post the PCN your challenge and the response in full so we can help.

This from the BB booklet

Who can use the badge?
The badge is for your use and benefit only. It must only be displayed if you are travelling in the vehicle as a driver or passenger, or if someone is collecting you or dropping you off and needs to park at the place where you are being collected or dropped.
Title: Re: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: slapdash on March 19, 2024, 09:37:07 pm
Details of location and the authority photos (they should be on their website) and front and back of the ticket will all help.

Sometimes they contain fatal errors.

Do not pay it just yet, wait until you have a full range of comments so you can make a more informed decision (I understand you may just want to get rid of it).

I do not believe you did anything wrong, but cases just like yours are cropping up a bit.

As an example I see no issue with my son using my badge to collect me. In this case we happen to both be adults.

If this use is to be prohibited quite how I am supposed to get to the car when it is much more likely beyond the limit of my mobility.

To yours, the large print guidance states:-

------
Who can use the badge?

The badge is for your use and benefit only. It must only be displayed if you are travelling in the vehicle as a driver or passenger, or if someone is collecting you or dropping you off and needs to park at the place where you are being collected or dropped.
------

That seems to cover you. However, how long did the episode take ? It seems there may have been some delay.

If you parked, walked to the shop (how long) and then were waiting for your wife to bring him (how long) thats a bit different (but not necessarily misuse).
Title: PCN for using Blue Badge to collect autistic child
Post by: Turbulent-Pack-447 on March 19, 2024, 08:49:09 pm
Apologies in advance if this is quite wordy, I am autistic myself and I hope these are all relevant details and no waffle. England here.

(Edit: I have misplaced the PCN but I am trying to track it down. I have attached the rejection letter for the formal appeal a few posts down.)

A few weeks ago, my wife called me and said our autistic child was having an extremely tough morning and that she thought it was best to take him out of school and drop him off with me so I could take him to a sensory play session, and then take him back to school hopefully much calmer.

I parked my car in a disabled bay, displayed the blue badge and clock, and walked immediately over to a spot in front of a shop to await their arrival. I got a call from the badge issuing office saying I was seen leaving the car without the badge holder and to go and speak to the Civil Enforcement Officer by the car. I went and explained that I was there to collect the badge holder and that they were on their way. The Officer said that this is not acceptable as the holder has to be present for both parts of the journey. I was mortified and explained that I thought I could use the badge for picking up and dropping off. I called my wife, but she didn't answer so the warden issued me a ticket. He did not confiscate the badge.

The officer said to come and find him if I could get hold of her. She eventually called back and explained that she had been quickly cleaning feces from the bathroom wall that she had just discovered and was now collecting him to bring to me. I found the officer, who spoke to her and made a note of this.

He said I could stay in the space because I had been issued a ticket and couldn't be issued another one and, quite distressed, I said I would prefer to just move my car if I was using the badge incorrectly as he had stated and I didn't want to take up a space for somebody else. I spoke to my wife and we decided to collect him later and take him along to the later session instead as I was so distressed.

My informal appeal was declined on the grounds that the badge holder had to be in the vehicle on arrival. The PCN was described as "Parked in a designated disabled person's parking place without displaying a valid disabled person's badge in the prescribed manner."

I have since checked, and nothing in my booklet, the council website, citizens advice etc says that the holder must be present for the full journey. It is made clear in all resources that the badge can be used to collect someone or drop them off and there's no further elaboration on how long I'm allowed to wait. I presumed that I had the full 2 hours as per the road sign.

I want to progress to a formal appeal detailing this, but my wife is terrified we will get taken to court and struggle to prove our story and wants me to just pay the reduced fine while I still can. I am concerned that this is an admission of guilt and will lead to prosecution for abuse of the badge if I pay the fine.

I don't know what to do and if I get a criminal record I will lose my job. Please please please help.