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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: The_Hock on March 19, 2024, 08:37:10 pm

Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: The_Hock on July 25, 2024, 08:46:05 pm
Okay,

I have an update on this case.

I was waiting for the NoRoR to be sent by my company to me, however, this did not materialise.

My company has now informed me that a Charge Certificate has been issued and they are panicking and saying that they need to pay it immediately. The charge is now £195.

I have logged on to the RKBC website to try and manage the PCN, but it says "Case Closed", I presume this means that my company have paid.

My question is:

Can I still appeal the PCN to the adjudicator?

TIA
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: cp8759 on July 03, 2024, 10:40:56 pm
Am I right in thinking that I should wait it out and rely on the Council surpassing the time limit as per the regs to send out the NoRoR?
No that's completely wrong, if the NoR has been issued and lost in the post that doesn't give you a get-out-of-jail-free card.

Can the company sign a letter of authority allowing you to appeal to the tribunal? You don't need to physically receive the notice of rejection to appeal to the tribunal, you just need to know the NoR has been issued.
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: The_Hock on July 03, 2024, 07:12:54 pm
Hi CP,

I've already had the NtO, I am awaiting the NoR, is that what you meant?

Regards
Yes

After receiving an email on 19th June advising that a NoRoR had been sent as a hard copy to the keeper, I sent an email to my company and they advised that they have still not received it.

Am I right in thinking that I should wait it out and rely on the Council surpassing the time limit as per the regs to send out the NoRoR?
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: cp8759 on June 23, 2024, 01:51:58 pm
Hi CP,

I've already had the NtO, I am awaiting the NoR, is that what you meant?

Regards
Yes
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: The_Hock on June 20, 2024, 07:28:38 pm
Hi CP,

I've already had the NtO, I am awaiting the NoR, is that what you meant?

Regards
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: cp8759 on June 20, 2024, 12:44:43 am
Let us know when you get the NTO and I'll draft something for you.
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: The_Hock on June 19, 2024, 08:43:47 pm
Hello,

After much wrangling with my company, where I had to get their authority to act - I have received an email advising that they are rejecting my appeal and the Notice of Rejection will be send by hard copy to my employer, which I will have to get them to forward to me.

(https://i.ibb.co/tLpDHTq/Notice-of-Rejection-Advisory-Letter.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z6VZmTX)
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: cp8759 on April 29, 2024, 06:55:10 pm
For later:

Map tile AA13 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/15MMhd_EpaZB7Uleh-yrVCWsvthT8zx5D/view)

Suspension information:

(https://i.imgur.com/ZGdxDpd.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/E0QEQUc.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/2anCNfZ.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/CZUxNsg.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/4cPttaJ.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/uiguDyN.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/PbTfo5K.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/V5KDwA5.png)
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: cp8759 on April 28, 2024, 10:55:57 pm
You cannot get a CCJ from a PCN come hell or high water, so they really don't need to worry about that.
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: The_Hock on April 28, 2024, 10:45:13 pm
Hi cp8759,

I have sent the representations as advised. Thank you for all your help.

My company are wobbling a little bit and worried about any potential impact of non-payment. I have told them that I am making representations and to hold out, as if I do lose at adjudication I will pay and not let it impact the company in a negative manner (I.e CCJ)

Cheers
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: cp8759 on April 28, 2024, 10:23:37 pm
Draft representation:

Dear Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea,

The alleged contravention did not occur.

The Kensington and Chelsea (Charged-For Parking Places) Consolidation Order 2023 does not contain any provision that allows a parking bay to be suspended for diplomatic vehicles, so the purported suspension is ultra-vires and invalid.

If the council wanted to temporarily turn this into a parking space for diplomatic vehicles then a TTRO should have been made any any PCN should have been issued for code 41 - Stopped in a parking place designated for diplomatic vehicles.

In the circumstances the contravention alleged did not occur, and the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

As always send this online, keep a copy of what you've sent, and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.

Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: The_Hock on April 25, 2024, 09:34:01 pm
Hello,

I have been informed by my company today that the Notice to Owner has been received by them, here is a copy of it.

(https://i.ibb.co/f2ZZdXM/RKBC-Nt-O-April-2024.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FKcc4h6)
upload (https://imgbb.com/)

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: The_Hock on April 05, 2024, 01:13:19 am
So the council cannot suspend the bay for the parking of Diplomatic Vehicles as there are no provisions on the order for doing so. Therefore, the suspension is invalid in that respect.

Also, a TTRO would be required to suspend the bay, however, the council are yet to provide this. Therefore, it is possible that they haven't suspended the bay at all.

However, as they haven't allowed dispensing a bay for diplomatic vehicles in their Traffic Management Order in the first place, they were unable to suspend the bay for diplomatic vehicles, which takes me back to point one.

The sign is also non compliant as I found their approved suspension sign and they have omitted the flap at the bottom, which is the only approved sign from the DfT.

I find it funny that they haven't provided the TTRO and it seems difficult to get hold of. Essentially, if they haven't suspended the original TMO/TRO they have essentially still got a pay by phone parking bay with a meaningless yellow sign with some fancy writing on it.
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: cp8759 on April 05, 2024, 12:15:36 am
Then surely the PCN should be issued for code 23 - Parked in a parking place or area not designated for that class of vehicle or 41 - Stopped in a parking place designated for diplomatic vehicles.

One problem with 23 is that if you look at the contravention codes here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/19AJE05Qxf81-n-b8vG4ufcUlrEmfqBD5/view), the suffix wording is mandatory and there is no suffix wording for diplomatic vehicles, so really they should have used code 41, which again I think would require a TTRO.
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: The_Hock on April 04, 2024, 08:06:47 pm
I have received a letter from RBKC today enclosing a map of where the contravention took place and "The Kensington and Chelsea (Charged for Parking Places) Consolidation Order 2023", which is the same as you posted.

The only section I noticed within Article 13(4) - "Any person duly authorised by the Council may suspend the use of a parking place or any part thereof whenever he considers such suspension reasonably necessary for the purpose of providing temporary parking space for any class of vehicle authorised from time to time by the Council."

Do you think they will rely on this to say that they have authorised Diplomatic Vehicles as a 'class' of vehicles? I have never heard of a Diplomatic Vehicle being a different class of vehicle, however, I am yet to be shocked.

Regards.
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: The_Hock on April 01, 2024, 12:00:18 pm
The traffic order for this location would appear to be The Kensington and Chelsea (Charged-For Parking Places) Consolidation Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KvR1GoiFM7wG6Tm_1nQXJ6UvZk0RmXNS/view), the only limb that allows parking to be suspended in order to provide parking to some other vehicle is at article 13(f):

for the purpose of providing temporary parking space for a goods carrying vehicle, where that vehicle is required for the transportation of equipment that is necessary for work that is being carried out to a property in the vicinity of that parking place;

That is obviously intended for construction vehicles and cannot possibly apply to diplomatic vehicles, so the suspension is ultra-vires. If the suspension is ultra-vires, the bay was not suspended at all so the contravention cannot possibly have occurred.

I have made some further enquiries to rule out a TTRO but odds are that the council simply don't know what they're doing, which is surprisingly common.

Hi CP,

I guess that I am waiting for the NtO to come through and raise this as the main reason that the contravention did not occur.

I am always happy to admit to a mistake, however, I have a strong belief that the authorities should adhere to their legal obligations. Otherwise, we operate in a society where the authorities can operate without adherence to the legal processes and as a lay person we have to abide to all of the laws.
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: cp8759 on April 01, 2024, 02:11:40 am
The traffic order for this location would appear to be The Kensington and Chelsea (Charged-For Parking Places) Consolidation Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KvR1GoiFM7wG6Tm_1nQXJ6UvZk0RmXNS/view), the only limb that allows parking to be suspended in order to provide parking to some other vehicle is at article 13(f):

for the purpose of providing temporary parking space for a goods carrying vehicle, where that vehicle is required for the transportation of equipment that is necessary for work that is being carried out to a property in the vicinity of that parking place;

That is obviously intended for construction vehicles and cannot possibly apply to diplomatic vehicles, so the suspension is ultra-vires. If the suspension is ultra-vires, the bay was not suspended at all so the contravention cannot possibly have occurred.

I have made some further enquiries to rule out a TTRO but odds are that the council simply don't know what they're doing, which is surprisingly common.
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: The_Hock on March 31, 2024, 08:21:28 pm
@The_Hock the five minute thing you've heard from a CEO is not a thing, certainly not when it comes to suspended bays. However as pointed out by Incandescent, a suspension that allows parking is not a suspension, see Jessica Cole v London Borough of Camden (2190083960, 28 March 2019) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11rLkHKcMnvKx6kJ85eb6JKL5NyTqKhkQ/view)

Please give us the PCN without any redactions, as per the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/). I'd like to get the parking suspension logs but I can't really do that without this information.

Also please can you confirm whether you're the registered keeper and if so, is the address on the V5C up to date?

Hello cp8759,

Thank you for your reply and thank you for citing the case from Jessica Cole, that appears to be useful in my instance.

I will post the PCN on here below. I am not the registered keeper as the vehicle is owned by my company, but, I have made them aware that I want to challenge the PCN and to pass any correspondence on to me.

(https://i.ibb.co/txzGWCZ/20240201-PCN-Royal-Borough-of-Kensington-and-Chelsea.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Tb1fFhK)
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: cp8759 on March 31, 2024, 12:58:30 pm
@The_Hock the five minute thing you've heard from a CEO is not a thing, certainly not when it comes to suspended bays. However as pointed out by Incandescent, a suspension that allows parking is not a suspension, see Jessica Cole v London Borough of Camden (2190083960, 28 March 2019) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11rLkHKcMnvKx6kJ85eb6JKL5NyTqKhkQ/view)

Please give us the PCN without any redactions, as per the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/). I'd like to get the parking suspension logs but I can't really do that without this information.

Also please can you confirm whether you're the registered keeper and if so, is the address on the V5C up to date?
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: The_Hock on March 21, 2024, 08:05:55 pm
I have sent the Parking Services team this email tonight:

"I have received your refusal letter.

As part of my process to further appeal this PCN, I am making a formal request for the paperwork relating to Traffic Regulation Order and Temporary Traffic Regulation Order for Scarsdale Place.

Therefore, please can I request the following:

1. The Traffic Regulation Order for the Pay By Phone bay in Scarsdale Place (located outside Holiday Inn Hotel).
2. The Temporary Traffic Regulation Order (TTRO) that regulates the suspension of the parking at the bay aforementioned in point 1 for the date covering when the PCN was issued.
3. The Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea's official policy on Parking Suspensions and how they are implemented."
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: The_Hock on March 21, 2024, 07:42:13 pm
It is a public document, so you can ask for it.

I only ask because I did request it before and they didn't send the correct information. My worry is that they won't send the right information.

What do you think of the points I have raised so far?
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: Incandescent on March 20, 2024, 11:02:06 pm
It is a public document, so you can ask for it.
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: The_Hock on March 20, 2024, 10:41:44 pm
Is there a quick way to get a copy of the TTRO?

I had emailed the council before I sent my challenge in, however, they only sent me a copy of the map and not the actual Traffic Regulation/Management Order or the Temporary Traffic Regulation Order.

Any help appreciated - thank you.
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: Incandescent on March 19, 2024, 11:01:03 pm
I'm just a bit suspicious that they have used suspension of parking, but haven't actually suspended it, because parking is still allowed for diplomatic vehicles. To alter the use of the bay, they need a TTRO. (Temporary Traffic Regulation Order). I'm not up-to-speed on this aspect but suspect this is the case, but we'd need to see what the sign says.
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: The_Hock on March 19, 2024, 10:17:30 pm
WE need council photos and a copy of the response

Hi pastmybest,

The link to the rejection Letter is at the bottom of the first post. The council photos are included in that as they put them with the notice of rejection.
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: Pastmybest on March 19, 2024, 09:44:01 pm
WE need council photos and a copy of the response
Title: Re: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: The_Hock on March 19, 2024, 08:38:03 pm
Copy of PCN attached.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: PCN (Code 21u) - 01/02/2024 - Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea
Post by: The_Hock on March 19, 2024, 08:37:10 pm
Hello,

I received a PCN from Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea on 1st February 2024 for a code 21u.

When I parked I mistakenly parked in a Suspended Bay that had been suspended for use by Diplomatic Vehicles. The bay is normally a Pay by Phone bay. I have previously been informed by a CEO that if I am less than 5 mins, I can leave the vehicle. As I do meter reading, I was very confident that I would have been in and out in 5 mins and I was.

However, I did not realise that there was a suspension in force and the CEO had already issued the PCN as I was walking back to the vehicle.

Not one for giving out £65 willingly, I like to ensure that the council is upholding their part of the bargain and are compliant with the relevant laws when they are issuing their tickets. Therefore, I appealed the PCN on the following grounds:

1. Suspension sign is not approved by DfT

2. No reference on the PCN to the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging Guidelines and General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022, as they are enforcing the PCN under these regulations not the TMA 2004 (I presume)?

3. Under Schedule 2 (d) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging Guidelines and General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022, a PCN must contain the following wording: "that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred", however, the PCN I received states "that the penalty charge must be paid within a period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred" - this wording is not compliant with the regulations, as the PCN issued by the council states "...within a period of 28 days...", whereas the PCN needs to state, "...within the period of 28 days".

4.The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022 state that a Regulation 9 PCN MUST include the following information: "that a person on whom a notice to owner is served may, in accordance with these Regulations, make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and, if those representations are rejected, appeal to an adjudicator"

The PCN issued states "A person on whom a Notice to Owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea against the Penalty Charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected"

The PCN issued therefore has not complied with the regulations, to which it MUST comply. This wording on the PCN does not state as to which regulations appeals can be made anywhere on the PCN and more crucially, within the wording that it must state and make reference to these regulations.

Predictably, I have received a very vague "Challenge Refused" letter, which only references one of my challenges (the suspension sign).

Is anyone able to give me some further advice to see if I have a chance to successfully appeal this PCN?


[attachment deleted by admin]