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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: shoebedoe on July 04, 2023, 11:46:30 am

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: cp8759 on November 07, 2023, 08:04:31 pm

@shoebedoe well I've finally got the suspension logs back and thanks to the somewhat inadequate redactions, I can see your number plate is on there.

What happened to the PCNs, did you end up paying them?

(https://i.imgur.com/bLEqrQ6.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/MbVE6H1.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/fBSbb3W.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/urCCOzi.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/q4uD1Pd.jpg)

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: cp8759 on August 14, 2023, 12:36:03 am

I suggest you redact your postal address from the PDF.

Anyway, it's just an informal rejection so I'd definitely wait for the Notice to Owner. The fact of that matter remains that if the council has lost access to all the key evidence (such as records of when the signs went up), I doubt they'd even try to contest this at the tribunal.

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: shoebedoe on August 10, 2023, 03:12:31 pm

Dear All,

Thanks for your help so far. Both appeals got rejected a few days ago only responding to my points on visibility, please see attached responses separately for:

BT19586168 and

BT1958618A

Can you please have a look and advise?

Many Thnaks

[attachment deleted by admin]

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: cp8759 on August 01, 2023, 02:51:03 pm

Bit of an odd reply from the council:

Some of the information you have requested is not currently held by Brent Council. The Council ended its Parking Enforcement Contract with Serco Limited on 3rd July 2023. 
 
Some information requested such as photos and hand written logs of VRN's are held with Serco Limited either in digital or paper format and we will not be able to provide this information until Serco complete the full transfer of all information to the Council. Therefore regulation 12(4) (a) applies to your request. Regulation 12(4) (a) provides an exception to the duty to disclose information when information is not held. The information, which is held, is provided below.
 
Please see attached spreadsheet in relation to parking suspension WA/BS/171408 which was in force on St Johns Avenue along with the suspension logs showing when the suspension was requested and by whom, when the signs were installed, and when they were removed.
 
As we do not currently have a final handover date with Serco, I am unable to provide a date as to when the photos and additional information can be provided and we will write to you again with the information that is held when we have completed the transfer.

(https://i.imgur.com/eLrFT0P.png)

I've asked for a copy of the Serco contract but it striked me that in the first instance, if the council has lost all the evidence, that would cause them some difficulty.

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: shoebedoe on July 07, 2023, 08:59:24 am

Thank you all for your help!
Below is what I sent to Brent Council last night:
Fingers crossed!

Dear London Borough of Brent,

I challenge the liability for PCN BT19586168 and BT19586168A on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. After parking  the vehicles I would have walked north-west towards my house at number 40, and there was no parking suspension sign attached to the regulatory sign for the bay just outside my house. Having seen and knowing that sign, I was entitled to rely on it to park my vehicles.

The obligation of the council is to make clear arrangements for adequate information to be provided  about any parking restriction (and to be clearly visible and noticeable) to traffic users. This was clearly not the case in this instance for two reasons:
1) there was only one sign at No.32 St Johns Avenue for a long stretch of restriction covering houses 32-36 with no additional signs provided at the other end
2) the only sign provided was hidden from view inside a tree as shown in the attached pictures, one of which taken by the issuing officer her/himself. This made it very difficult to notice that there was a parking restriction in force on both sides of the street with the restriction on the other side clearly visible by the 2 (!) signs posted near the works taking place.

I trust you will be able to cancel the PCN on the grounds given above.

Yours faithfully,

Wolfgang Frese

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: cp8759 on July 06, 2023, 10:23:53 pm

Quote from: Ugly duckling on July 06, 2023, 06:40:56 pm

The scooter was parked next to the sign, IMO it could not be missed unless it wasn't there.

The suspension logs will prove this conclusively one way or the other, so there's no need to labour the point.

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: cp8759 on July 06, 2023, 10:22:59 pm

Quote from: shoebedoe on July 06, 2023, 01:29:20 pm

Are you saying they should have put up a sign at No 40 so someone like me parking at No34 would see that there is a restriction on this side of the road but further up the road? Is it reasonable to ask the council to put up a sign at No 40 to signpost a restriction for No 32-26?

When installing a suspension, the council must provide adequate signage. This must entail signage on the regulatory signs either side of the suspension, because you're entitled to go in either direction and rely on the first regulatory sign you encounter.

You say the sign wasn't there, this is just an informal representation so I would send the draft as suggested above and let's see what they come back with.

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: guest179 on July 06, 2023, 06:40:56 pm

The obligation on the council is:

the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;

The scooter was parked next to the sign, IMO it could not be missed unless it wasn't there.

And as regards 'wasn't there', we weren't but the driver(s) was/were. I don't know when the scooter was parked only when you said it was..and you posted that it was parked 2 days after the 19th(the date on the sign)so the sign was there, or was it? The council's records will show when it was erected.

If both were parked before the single sign was erected, then it's immaterial in which direction the driver(s) went, there was nothing to see. And if you could claim that neither driver used the car subsequently, then that's it.

Don't lie about when the vehicles were parked, your defence needs to be the best possible based on the truth.

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: shoebedoe on July 06, 2023, 02:45:41 pm

Thanks for your points, very useful.
So are you suggesting to argue the 'book end' point on the basis that both vehicles were parked before the signs went up?
I thought the point of the book end argument is that the signs have to be up when you parked the vehicle and you are walking into the direction with no sign (although there should be another one). given the position of the scooter you say that the book end point is unlikely to work for the scooter but might work for the car. That means I should argue in different directions for each?
reg. 'making reps on a single point' the only other I have to advance is the fact that the sign was hard to see as disguised by the branches of the tree it was near to. Not sure if this would work but I have photographs proving that you can't see the sign from our house looking up the road towards the vehicles. My point is that I have checked the vehicles on the day before from outside the house but that the sign was invisible.

Thanks again for your help!

W

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: guest179 on July 06, 2023, 01:47:00 pm

The driver parked the scooter on 21st therefore unless the council did not erect the sign beforehand - the sign states 19 June - it was there to be seen and IMO an adjudicator would be unlikely go for the 'book-end' argument as regards the scooter.
And the driver of the car was the same person and therefore knew the restriction existed and therefore whether they parked after the sign was erected...???

Sorry OP but why should 'A sign at this post would have been perfect as it is right in front of my house so I would not have missed that!' work when parking right next to a sign didn't?

The 'book-end' traffic sign argument has worked before, but each case turns on its own facts.

Only you know what happened but I would caution against making reps on a single point if you have more that could be advanced. But if you don't, then you don't.

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: shoebedoe on July 06, 2023, 01:36:53 pm

sorry, I meant No. 32-36 (typo in earlier response)

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: shoebedoe on July 06, 2023, 01:29:20 pm

Hi and Thanks for your draft!
I am not sure this will bite as the car and scooter were parked outside No 34 before both signs were up.
Are you saying they should have put up a sign at No 40 so someone like me parking at No34 would see that there is a restriction on this side of the road but further up the road? Is it reasonable to ask the council to put up a sign at No 40 to signpost a restriction for No 32-26?
Or did I misunderstand your point?

Many Thanks again!

Wolf

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: cp8759 on July 06, 2023, 11:29:27 am

Draft representation:

Dear London Borough of Brent,

I challenge liability for PCN XXXX and YYYY on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. After parking my vehicles I would have walked north-west towards my house at number 40, and there was no parking suspension sign attached to the regulatory sign for the bay located just outside my house.

Having seen that sign, I was entitled to rely on it to park my vehicles.

Yours faithfully,

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: shoebedoe on July 06, 2023, 10:16:12 am

No sign at this post. This post is located at No 40 and the restriction was between 32 and 36. A sign at this post would have been perfect as it is right in front of my house so I would not have missed that!

Part of my argument would be that there should have been more signs up at this side of the street as there were at least 2 on the other side where the actual works have taken place. It also seems unusual to block both sides of the street as the works continued into Saturday without the restriction signs up and cars were parked on this side without causing any problems to the flow of traffic. I guess no point in arguing this direction as the utility supplier applied for both sides and there are no grounds in questioning that...

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: cp8759 on July 06, 2023, 12:10:10 am

Was there a suspension sign attached to this pole? https://goo.gl/maps/vwTj3daEHT7GwYrr9

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: shoebedoe on July 05, 2023, 11:20:06 pm

Ours is No.40 so I walked North West to get home.

thanks, WOlf

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: cp8759 on July 05, 2023, 07:13:55 pm

In which direction did you walk to go to your house, north-west or south-east?

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: shoebedoe on July 05, 2023, 01:45:07 pm

here is the exact location of the traffic sign (in winter):
https://goo.gl/maps/smnWp48rVko5ZQEZ7

Title: Re: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: cp8759 on July 04, 2023, 06:52:03 pm

I have asked for the parking suspension logs, do you remember what time you parked?

You have until midnight on Thursday to make a challenge and preserve the discount.

Can you please give us a link to the exact location on google street view?

Title: Brent council, contravention code 21, parked in a suspended bay
Post by: shoebedoe on July 04, 2023, 11:46:30 am

Hi all,
I have read a lot on Pepipoo about suspended residents bays but I wonder if anyone can help with the approach fighting 2 parking tickets (one for a car and the other for a scooter) for a 24 hour suspension in Brent.
Our car and the scooter were parked before the parking suspension was put up (apparently 19.06. which I would dispute but not sure I can without evidence). I actually parked the scooter on 21.06. but did not see the suspension sign if it was there! The residents bays suspension from House numbers 32-36 in St Johns Avenue was for utility works on the other side of the road (also had 2 parking bays suspended) which I suspect was for utilities vehicles to park and in force on 23.06.23 AT ALL TIMES (although resident parking controlled hours are from 8.30 to 18.00 Mo - Sat). I only found out from neighbours on the day of the suspension that our car had been towed to higher up the street...

I think I have 3 reasons to challenge the tickets on the following grounds:
- 4 days notice is not enough time to warn residents of a suspension and no notices have been in the letterbox
- there was only one sign for 4-5 bays outside house number 32
- the sign was too difficult to see or notice as hidden from branches of a tree right next to the sign.

Many Thanks for your help

Wolf

ticket link:
https://imgur.com/a/aT16uRr
https://imgur.com/IwlJhy9

PCN images scooter:
https://imgur.com/UmGChqx
https://imgur.com/ab6dFPt

my photos:
https://imgur.com/x7Vg6MO
https://imgur.com/2QA1jzI

PCN2 images car:
https://imgur.com/D34mrlu
https://imgur.com/zaZeMr8
https://imgur.com/72VGlHw
https://imgur.com/zc4Kbdj

my photos:
https://imgur.com/agzyA3N
https://imgur.com/Xd8GEMc

[attachment deleted by admin]