Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: John001 on March 19, 2024, 04:10:06 pm
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Another great win against these steward of the bar. So arrogant and ignorant. That rhymes too.
Well done for staying the course. Please spread the word. ;D
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Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1P53BBJnITVkJFD8CSiDXX6kyoHYlVyVu/view).
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The traffic order is The Bromley (Waiting and Loading Restriction) Order 2003 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lg5uZUg1f4B4ssgDlwiIq0LXColF7hIk/view) but I am yet to receive the amending orders for North Road.
Ultimately however the traffic order doesn't matter: there is an exemption to waiting restrictions for boarding and alighting, even where loading restrictions are in place. The only way to prohibit this is to create a no-stopping prohibition such as a red route, a clearway, a box junction, pedestrian zig-zags or school clearway markings, none of which are relevant here.
This should therefore be winnable on appeal as long as the arguments are made correctly, I will drop you a PM in case you'd like to be represented.
It would be useful to see the actual notice of rejection, but frankly at this point I'd recommend you appeal no matter what it says.
As an aside there is no right to an observation period, if there had been no exempt activity taking place the council would have been entitled to enforce an instant PCN, as there is no grace period in law. Observation periods only exist to reduce the risk of incorrectly issued PCN owing to exempt activity happening out of sight of the CEO, but if there is no exempt activity and the CEO takes his chances by issuing an immediate PCN, that is not a ground of appeal.
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Traffic order is on its way.
Hi cp8759,
Did you get the traffic order ?
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Today I received a rejection letter from Bromley council for the formal appeal.
As in the previous appeals they have ignored my point of dropping off a passenger who was awaiting a knee op and had difficulty walking. They have said that the concession for unloading only applies if you have heavy or bulky goods and that if they can be carried by hand the concession does not apply. They are now asking for £130 within 28 days or I can appeal to the parking adjudicator.
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Thanks for the advice.
I will submit my formal challenge and report back with their reply.
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Your reps look OK to me. What they will probably do is reject them and re-offer the discount. They do this because they know that almost all people then just cough-up. Of course, if they reject and don't re-offer the discount, it is then a total no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals, as the penalty does not increase and there are no additional costs. As unloading is a lawful exemption to yellow lines, you would be justified in asking for costs, because denying a legal exemption is wholly unreasonable.
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Anyone with any advice for formal challenge ?
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By the way, I haven't sent the appeal yet. I am awaiting any feedback from you.
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Hi,
I have now received the NTO, 3 pages attached.
I have written the formal appeal as follows -
This is my formal challenge to your PCN.
As I said in my previous appeal, I was unloading the car after shopping.
Your reply " stopping for a short period of time, even just a few minutes to park outside of your home, is not permitted" is incorrect.
You have failed to consider the points I made, and nor did I stop to park.
My partner, who is the owner of the car was with me and at the time she had difficulty walking as she was awaiting knee surgery (she had this on Feb 15th). She was also recovering from a gallbladder op which she had 2 weeks previously, so no way was I going to search for a parking bay to unload the shopping and make her walk up to 60 yards.
Also the fact that you waited nearly 3 months to reply to my informal appeal is out of order.
I have since revisited your informal appeal process and there are now options to select a reason to challenge the PCN by stating
I was loading/unloading at the time
I was picking up/dropping off a passenger
These options weren't listed when I sent my informal appeal.
Yours sincerely.
Any replies on whether this appeal would work?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Traffic order is on its way.
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I heard nothing until last week, March 14, nearly 3 months later, I received a letter of rejection.
As well as the loading exemption, I think this fact really does need to be on your reps against the Notice to Owner, and certainly at London Tribunals if you get that far. Three months to reply to informal reps is really quite disgraceful in my opinion.
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From reading other threads, it seems that the only way of getting a n appeal accepted is by pointing out a technical error - is this true?
No, it's not true.
You've described a legitimate exemption and ultimately your word in front of an adjudicator should, ime. win. As long as you don't say anything daft.
What the council have told you so far is rubbish; there are various circumstances in which you are allowed to stop.
If they repeat that statement at the next stage then you will also have a 'failure to consider', a winning point on its own.
But we do need you to cooperate. Do read the link I gave you on how to post images; your current attachments are difficult to read and lack the elements I've explained we need.
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location : North Road, Bromley
https://maps.app.goo.gl/tCGSxZLmCR4oq4Tz5
I will post again when I receive the NTO
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@John001 also please give us a link to the exact spot on google street view, I want to get hold of the traffic order (if I don't have a copy already) but that's a bit difficult if I don't know where this is. It takes 20 working days to get hold of it so the sooner I can request it the better.
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You only need to remove name and address.
We need everything else.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
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only the name and address and the penalty chaarge number and location. There is no traffic code.
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I have attached the front and back page of their rejection letter to my informal appeal.
Is that all of it? Have you chopped some parts off?
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I have attached the front and back page of their rejection letter to my informal appeal.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Sorry, it was the time of contravention and the time seen was exactly the same.
From the images shown, there was less than a minute from the first picture taken and the pcn attached to the car.
From reading other threads, it seems that the only way of getting a n appeal accepted is by pointing out a technical error - is this true?
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I no longer have the PCN. I threw it away after I had no response after 2 months as I thought that there was a time limit of 56 days for them to reply.
I have appealed against PCN's from the council before and have only ever had a reply if the appeal has been rejected (within a few weeks), but they don't reply if it is not rejected.
I am going to wait for them to send the NTO and I will make a formal appeal.
The rejection letter stated that "you said you only stopped for a short time, but this is not allowed".
They ignored my main point that the time of contravention and the time of issue was exactly the same.
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@John001 so where's the PCN please?
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I thought there was a time limit for them to reply to my appeal.
There is a limit but not at the PCN informal representations stage, which is where you were when submitting representations.
There is an exemption for loading-unloading, so if it were me, I'd wait for the Notice to Owner and submit reps on this basis.
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Yes. Please post up copies of the pcn, your challenge and the rejection. Cover up only your name and address. We will look for technical error
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There is a yellow line on the road outside my house with parking restrictions.
On December 14th, I returned home from shopping and took some bags into the house.
I went back outside to move the car, literally 3 minutes later and a warden had already put a ticket on my windscreen.
He was walking and could have even seen me get out of the car with my shopping because he had walked 60 yards to my car.
The ticket said the car was seen at 12.38 and was issued at 12.38.
I appealed against this PCN the next day as I believe he should have waited at least a few minutes before issuing a ticket.
I heard nothing until last week, March 14, nearly 3 months later, I received a letter of rejection.
I no longer have the ticket as I thought there was a time limit for them to reply to my appeal.
They have told me if I want to make a formal appeal I will have to wait for a Notice to Owner (NtO).
Are they allowed to issue a ticket without waiting even a minute?