Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: iispartan on March 13, 2024, 04:51:16 pm

Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: cp8759 on August 01, 2024, 12:15:38 am
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PtG9mtuSkL64UOG3T6XZFuV8N2j2yHcS/view).
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: cp8759 on June 01, 2024, 12:41:42 am
I wouldn't worry about arguing anything until we know whether the council is going to contest the case. Where I've used this line of argument I've never lost, but we've not had a decision where all the issues have been fully ventilated because I've never come across a council capable of formulating a proper rebuttal.

I'm not sure we'd need to use anything from the parking places order, the key issue really is that the council has done nothing to bring the terms of the order to your attention (in many car parks the tariff board tells you the name of the order and also that you can go and inspect it at the town hall, this car park doesn't even tell you it's a car park).

I'm going to drop you a PM in case you'd like to be represented.
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: iispartan on May 29, 2024, 10:14:23 am
It seems the discount is no longer on the table, so a no brainer to go to tribunal. Has this argument worked before in the tribunal?

Also is there anything in the traffic orders which can be used in the argument?
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: iispartan on May 28, 2024, 01:10:35 pm
Hello, yes reps were made as per above and the council have rejected, see response below:

https://imgur.com/a/4KkEdOD
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: cp8759 on May 17, 2024, 05:11:26 pm
@iispartan have representations been made?

In the meantime I've got hold of:

The Islington (Off-Street Parking Places) (Housing Estates) Order 2021 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LmErAgYWhdPJ7_2QYYHHpyTzUUpG_EXk/view)
The Islington (Off-Street Parking Places) (Housing Estates) (Amendment No. 2) Order 2022 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/19N17ywHrXyEEcj0Y-7eXTtQRXYZGq7R0/view)
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: cp8759 on April 29, 2024, 10:35:31 pm
The TSRGD do not apply to car parks, so they're largely irrelevant, here's a revised draft:

Dear London Borough of Islington,

I challenge liability for this PCN on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur. The PCN alleges an off-street contravention, so there is a requirement for the council to communicate the terms and conditions of parking created by the off-street parking places order to users of the car park.

As the location is off-street, the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 are irrelevant and are of no application. Ordinarily in an off-street car park there would be a tariff board outlining that the car park is subject to statutory parkings controls, listing the terms and conditions of parking, and stating that failure to comply with the requirements imposed by the parking places order might result in a penalty charge notice being served.

At this location there is nothing to bring the terms and conditions of parking to the attention of motorists, indeed here is nothing to advise motorists that they are within an off-street car park subject to statutory controls, nor is there anything to inform users that the bay markings and signs are anything other than merely advisory.

I had been given no information about the fact that the land in question is an off-street car park, or that a parking places order imposed any restrictions, let alone that a statutory penalty charge notice might be issued for failing to comply with the terms of the order.

In the circumstances the alleged contravention cannot have occurred, and the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Make sure to keep a copy of the representation, and a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: iispartan on April 28, 2024, 10:10:24 pm
Just doing some reading of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/5/made

And I think the sign may not be totally compliant if I’m interpreting the regs correctly. The sign table under Schedule 5, Part 4 of the TSRGD dictates the permitted items allowed on the lower panel. These are:
1) A time period
2) A time period (with permitted variants)
3) “Except in signed bay”
4) “No motor vehicle parking on verge or footway except where signed”

None of the above, nor permitted variants for the above, are included in the sign in question of this contravention. Instead the sign says “Park in marked bays only” which doesn’t comply with the above.

Please do correct me if I’m reading them wrong, thinking about adding this to the appeal.
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: iispartan on April 25, 2024, 10:00:53 pm
A rough draft below, I’ve tried to scout the regs for any concrete guidelines that state the signage point but can’t find anything to reference. Let me know your thoughts.

Dear London Borough of Islington,

I challenge this PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur. There is no clear signage to indicate that this is an off-street car park therefore there is no way a motorist can be certain that they are parking subject to an off street car parking places order or an ordinary car park. There are no terms and conditions stipulated and as such the PCN must be cancelled.

Regards
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: cp8759 on April 24, 2024, 11:30:16 pm
Not at the moment, but it's not due back till 1st May.
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: iispartan on April 24, 2024, 10:10:09 am
@cp8759 any update on the Traffic Order?
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: iispartan on April 22, 2024, 09:42:14 pm
NtO arrived

https://imgur.com/a/EDxZxPi
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: iispartan on April 03, 2024, 08:28:20 pm
Yes I’ve told him to wait for the NtO. All details up to date he tells me - I’ll let you know once NtO arrives
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: cp8759 on April 03, 2024, 06:22:42 pm
Well there's nothing to tell you it's a car park, so you couldn't possibly know that you're in an off-street car park subject to an off-street parking places order.

I'd suggest your friend waits for the notice to owner, the notice to owner will demand the full amount but as long as it is challenged within 14 days the discount is almost inevitably reoffered, so don't worry too much about the discount.

In the meantime I've already requested the order form the council. Please can you confirm your friend is the registered keeper and he has the V5C, and also that the address on the V5C is up to date?
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: iispartan on April 03, 2024, 12:41:09 pm
See link for addition pics. Let me know if you need anything else

https://imgur.com/a/hUpSitl
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: cp8759 on April 03, 2024, 11:50:15 am
@iispartan can we get a photo from across the street please? It's hard to judge sign adequacy from a close-up.

Also are there any further signs inside the parking area?
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: iispartan on April 03, 2024, 11:43:12 am
@cp8759 my friend has told me that the yellow sign in your link is now gone and looks to have been replaced with the following

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: cp8759 on March 30, 2024, 08:39:46 pm
@iispartan please tell your friend to wait for the notice to owner, and while we're on this topic please confirm whether your friend is the registered keeper and has the V5C from DVLA.

The Google street view image here (https://maps.app.goo.gl/QLzKXSyLhFbyJpiV7) shows a private parking sign, so really we need some updated images of the location to confirm exactly what the signage looks like now.

In the meantime I'll request the parking places order.
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: iispartan on March 30, 2024, 05:16:35 pm
Appeal rejected. See response from the council here:

 https://imgur.com/a/ML8FMwW
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: iispartan on March 30, 2024, 04:57:18 pm
@cp8759 fortunately my friend did appeal the ticket last week in order to extend the discount. But also he tells me he has tried to inquire for a permit but the council haven’t got back to him.

The link to the location is here https://maps.app.goo.gl/xbww46WAX8t5GfLcA?g_st=ic

I’ll let you know once council has responded to appeal
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: cp8759 on March 25, 2024, 11:01:09 pm
@iispartan this is a car park PCN, so there needs to be a board advising motorists of the same, and also of the terms and conditions of parking. If the council hasn't provided any of that, then there's a strong argument to be made here (how do you know it's a council off-street car park if they don't tell you?).

Can you please give us a link to the location, or as close as you can get to the location?

I also need to get hold of the off-street parking places order, but I need to know exactly where this is first.
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: iispartan on March 14, 2024, 10:05:25 am
He just hasn’t got round to getting the permit yet, the process of getting a permit seems relatively straight forward based on Islington councils website.

Looks like bang to rights on this one, was hoping for a PCN error or something but I think I’ll tell him not to risk the discount unless a ‘failure to consider’ could work.
Title: Re: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: Incandescent on March 13, 2024, 06:16:40 pm
Photos are not a legal requirement. In addition, I cannot see anything wrong with the PCN. More info is needed on why he is living on this estate and parking but has no permit. What are the arrangements for residents who move in and also have a car ? Is it that they must buy a day permit every day until the yearly permit arrives ?

More info please
Title: Islington - 85 parked without a valid permit
Post by: iispartan on March 13, 2024, 04:51:16 pm
On behalf of a friend again -

Got a parking ticket for parking on his estate where he lives but doesn’t have an estate permit yet. Council images and front/back of PCN in below link.

I noticed the CEO didn’t take a close up of the sign that stipulates the contravention - wondering if this would stand in appeal?

Any help appreciated,
Thanks

https://imgur.com/a/qDk2J5P