Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Sonu rocks on March 13, 2024, 09:58:47 am

Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: John U.K. on December 18, 2024, 07:47:32 pm
The other question is why would it go to the court and not to POPLA or Tribunal?

SEe Incandescent's reply#32

There he tells you the necessary steps before it can reach the Tribunal (POPLA is for private parking tickets).

BUT, as HCA says, it sounds as if you submitted the reps late, and the Council were entitled to ignore them.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on December 18, 2024, 07:27:04 pm
The other question is why would it go to the court and not to POPLA or Tribunal?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on December 15, 2024, 07:17:54 pm
So if they disregarded what should be done in this case?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: H C Andersen on December 15, 2024, 07:04:59 pm
As I posted:

..allowed, or later if accepted as late by either body..[in this case the authority].

But they weren't accepted and considered, they were disregarded.

Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on December 15, 2024, 01:35:22 pm
There is no name of the officer at the end of the notice, should there be one? Is there anything wrong (eg, format or wording ) with this given NTO whereby the owner can appeal against it?

Also, any idea why they have ignored the late appeal made by the owner and is there anything that can be done about it in this instance where they missed/ ignored the appeal?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on December 14, 2024, 07:08:09 pm
@HC Andersen because it says '' If you did not receive the NTO, or you made representations to either the Council  or the Independent Adjudicator within the Statutory period allowed, or later if accepted as late by either body, and did not receive a copy of the decision, you will be entitled to challenge the registration by filing a Witness Statement''
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: H C Andersen on December 13, 2024, 07:43:55 pm
??

The NTO was received and reps made late and disregarded.

What grounds apply to submit a WS? 
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Incandescent on December 13, 2024, 05:38:27 pm
Does this need to be posted as a new topic?
No

You should now wait for them to register the debt at TEC, (the "court" with no courtrooms !), and then submit a Witness Statement that you submitted formal reps but received no notice of rejection. The matter will then revert to the NtO stage. Registration of the debt means £10 is added to the CC amount.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on December 13, 2024, 03:08:10 pm
Thank you. Just thought as this is an older thread it will have less visibility.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: John U.K. on December 13, 2024, 01:47:15 pm
Does this need to be posted as a new topic?

No - why would you think it should be?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on December 13, 2024, 01:26:06 pm
Does this need to be posted as a new topic?
 
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on December 13, 2024, 12:17:50 pm
Hello again,

Received a letter from the council (please see the below link).

https://ibb.co/cD6P0Xp
https://ibb.co/zxMMW83

   
They have ignored the NTO's appeal which was sent on 11th Sept as per below:

Dear Sirs,

Please accept my apologies for the late reply as I have not been in
the country since 17th July and only received the NTO yesterday upon
my return. Please see the Passport stamp.

I appeal the PCN for the following reasons:

1) The driver had parked as the child was feeling ill and wanted to
throw up. The driver exited the car to see if her child had thrown up
and to provide some water. In the meantime, the parking attendant
(very trickily whilst looking elsewhere) took the pictures and he was
in such a rush to take the pictures that he had not filled the column
on the PCN where he had to mention the colour of the car. The pictures
he took are very blurred (even the number plate is not clear) showing
the intention and cruelty of the parking warden. The warden did not
want to listen to anything when spoken to. The driver was trying to
converse with the warden but he was in a rush to take pictures of the
car and even though he saw the child sitting in the back he did not
have any courtesy to even listen to the situation. He then quickly
printed the ticket and placed it on the windscreen. The warden then
left the site and the total time taken was only a few minutes.

There is an exemption in section 15(3)(b) of the Greater London
Council (General Powers) Act 1974:

the purpose of saving life or extinguishing a fire or meeting any
other emergency

If a child is ill and vomiting that's enough of an emergency to cause
most drivers to stop and render assistance.


2) Under Section 87 of the Transport Management Act 2004, the local
authorities must issue the NTO within 56 days of the PCN being
received. However, It has been 145 days since the PCN was issued.
Therefore, the NTO is invalid.


3) In addition, The wording of the PCN in terms of the 28 days period
is wrong since it does not comply with Schedule 2 para. 2 @
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2

(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days
beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,

In light of this procedural impropriety please cancel the PCN.


Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on September 10, 2024, 10:41:23 am
Thank you all!

The representation has been submitted with the passport stamps as proof of absence in the country. Let's hope for the best.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: H C Andersen on September 09, 2024, 06:54:34 pm
OP, IMO you have a dilemma.

IMO, there's nothing 'grey' about the law, you were served with the NTO but did not make reps within the permitted period. This denies to you the only grounds on which you could lawfully submit a Witness Statement because the grounds are not conditional or contingent upon your circumstances, IMO they're strict.

But if you did submit a WS there's no mechanism by which this could be challenged by the council and TEC would cancel because they are required to.

So it's down to you.

The alternative would be to submit reps now and ask them to not disregard. But because the ball's in their court, IMO you could hardly show your strongest hand at this stage- the inordinate and inexcusable delay in issuing the NTO(which caused it to be delivered to you right at the start of the summer holidays)- because if they thought it had merit they might disregard (morality not being their strongest suit). You'd have to find other grounds or risk them disregarding.

When did you return from holiday, why away for such an extended period, what evidence do you have etc. etc?

Wait for others.

So, what to do?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: stamfordman on September 09, 2024, 01:42:41 pm
I worked it out. There is no need to blank anything but name and address.

A CC is on its way - as it stands you have a reset available to you if you wait for the order for recovery and make a witness statement that you didn't get the NTO but this is in a grey area of legality as it was sent to you and you didn't service your post.

An alternative is to send a grovel to the council now saying you were away and will they accept reps.

(https://i.imgur.com/kbLXUkc.png)
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on September 09, 2024, 01:25:45 pm
What is the PCN number and car reg - you've blanked them.

As it stands you are out of time to make reps as the NTO is dated 26 July and a charge certificate is probably on its way.

Thought the PCN and Car reg are confidential info.

Thinking of emailing the council the passport stamp as proof of absence in the country.

Also, what happens when a charge certificate has been issued?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: stamfordman on September 09, 2024, 12:14:59 pm
What is the PCN number and car reg - you've blanked them.

As it stands you are out of time to make reps as the NTO is dated 26 July and a charge certificate is probably on its way.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on September 09, 2024, 12:02:47 pm
Hello,
 
Finally, the Hounslow Council sent the NTO while the driver was away for 6 weeks. Please see below

https://ibb.co/wQhPFL4
https://ibb.co/WWHgGWf

The Council took 140 days from the day of PCN to send the NTO. Is this valid? 

Thank you in advance!
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: cp8759 on May 20, 2024, 10:50:39 pm
My other question is, if a similar situation arrives again in the future what could a common man do to stop such behaviour (will calling the police help in this situation?) where they are forcing and abusing the power which is given by the council.
Basically nothing, the most you could do is ask the officer to make some notes explaining the circumstances. If you discretely film the internation on your phone (i.e. without making it obvious so the CEO isn't aware) and the CEO says he'll make notes and then he doesn't, later down the line you can undermine his credibility and you can also make a complaint would the council would really struggle to dismiss.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on May 17, 2024, 10:24:05 am
Thanks.

The driver did not leave the car at any time. The warden was waiting pretending that he was a common man looking here and there, and then suddenly started taking the pictures (you can tell from the pictures he has taken that they are very blurred). When the driver got out of the car to speak to him he avoided the conversation and said to write it to the council then they would decide. My other question is, if a similar situation arrives again in the future what could a common man do to stop such behaviour (will calling the police help in this situation?) where they are forcing and abusing the power which is given by the council.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: H C Andersen on May 16, 2024, 06:26:38 pm
OP, the rejection letter seems to have disappeared.

OP, can I check a couple of facts with you while we await the NTO.

Did you leave the car at any time?
What were you doing when the CEO arrived?

The council's duty under the Traffic Management Act is 'to have regard'. If the council's policy is to endeavour to issue within 56 days, then so be it.

No-one can quantify when 'we did our best/staff shortages etc.' crosses the 'exceptional circumstances' threshold.

Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Incandescent on May 16, 2024, 03:15:35 pm
Much depends on circumstances whether the NtO has been issued unfairly late in the process. On March 26th you posted their rejection of your informal representations against the PCN. So at the moment, I don't think you can use this argument, as it is only about a month and a hlaf since then.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on May 16, 2024, 02:46:44 pm
Thank you!

So it has been 68 days since the date on the PCN. Does this mean if they send out the NTO now the owner can argue why they have take that long and that it is not valid unless they provide a strong reasoning?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Incandescent on May 16, 2024, 02:08:31 pm
The statutory limit is 6 months, but the Statutory Guidance says this: -

Quote
Issuing the notice to owner
If the penalty charge is not paid the enforcement authority may issue a notice to owner (NtO). The purpose of this is to ensure that the PCN was received by the vehicle owner and to remind the vehicle owner that the payment in full is now due and, if it is not paid within a further 28 days, it may be increased.

The NtO may be issued 28 days after serving the penalty charge, and we expect authorities to send them within 56 days. The ultimate time limit, in exceptional circumstances, is 6 months [footnote 33] from the ‘relevant date’. There should be a very good reason for waiting that long to serve an NtO. The regulations set out the information that the NtO must [footnote 34] give.

Section 87 of the Transport Management Act 2004 stipulates that local authorities must have regard to the information contained in this guidance. So, if they exceed the 56 days, they would be expected to explain why, and an adjudicator could decide their reason given for delay is not reasonable, and is an abuse of process.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on May 16, 2024, 12:38:07 pm
How long does the council have to issue NTO after they have rejected the appeal? or is there any timeframe they are legally abiding to notify the owner?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: cp8759 on March 31, 2024, 09:57:47 pm
What a nonsense rejection, I'd definitely wait for the notice to owner.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on March 27, 2024, 03:19:58 pm
IMO, nothing in what you've said comes near 'an emergency' within the meaning of the Act, plus of course there's no independent evidence in support. In any event you could have pulled in to the side of the road. I would not risk the discount on this point but you can put it to the council and if you do I suggest you strip out the emotion and simply concentrate on the facts. In which respect what does 'The warden did not want to listen to anything when spoken to' mean?

Did the driver speak to the CEO? Where did this take place? Did the driver show the CEO their child and try to explain? What did the CEO say? How was the PCN served e.g. by hand to the driver or on the vehicle? If this took place at the vehicle, then the CEO must have noticed the child etc..

The driver spoke with the CEO but he sneakily took pictures of the car and he saw the child sitting in the back. CEO quickly printed the ticket and placed it on the windscreen. CEO did this job within couple of minutes and left.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: H C Andersen on March 26, 2024, 11:33:55 am
IMO, nothing in what you've said comes near 'an emergency' within the meaning of the Act, plus of course there's no independent evidence in support. In any event you could have pulled in to the side of the road. I would not risk the discount on this point but you can put it to the council and if you do I suggest you strip out the emotion and simply concentrate on the facts. In which respect what does 'The warden did not want to listen to anything when spoken to' mean?

Did the driver speak to the CEO? Where did this take place? Did the driver show the CEO their child and try to explain? What did the CEO say? How was the PCN served e.g. by hand to the driver or on the vehicle? If this took place at the vehicle, then the CEO must have noticed the child etc..
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Incandescent on March 26, 2024, 09:23:28 am
It's the usual Fob-Off letter sent out in response to 99% of informal challenges, (probaably 100% !!), that totally ignores your representations. If it were me I'd follow 'cp8759's advice.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on March 26, 2024, 01:19:34 am
The appeal was as per below:

''The driver had parked as the child was feeling ill and wanted to throw up. The driver exited the car to see if her child had thrown up and to provide some water. In the meantime, the parking attendant (very trickily whilst looking elsewhere) took the pictures and he was in such a rush to take the pictures that he had not filled the column on the PCN where he had to mention the colour of the car. The pictures he took are very blurred (even the number plate is not clear) showing the intention and cruelty of the parking warden. The warden did not want to listen to anything when spoken to''.


Please see below the rejection from the council

https://ibb.co/1szj9jg
https://ibb.co/pwF0SRv
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: cp8759 on March 25, 2024, 11:06:38 pm
@Sonu rocks please show us exactly what you sent, and any response you get from the council.

Do not give up and pay if they reject, there is an exemption in section 15(3)(b) of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1974/24/section/15) for (my emphasis):

the purpose of saving life or extinguishing a fire or meeting any other emergency

If a child is ill and vomiting that's enough of an emergency to cause most drivers to stop and render assistance, or so I would have thought.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Hippocrates on March 15, 2024, 12:21:41 pm
Thank you. I have appealed so let's wait for their response.

I would add this supplementary point to test their response:

The wording of the PCN in terms of the 28 days period is wrong since it does not comply with Schedule 2 para. 2 @  https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2

(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,

In light of this procedural impropriety please cancel the PCN.

*******

PM sent.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on March 15, 2024, 12:10:54 pm
Thank you. I have appealed so let's wait for their response.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Incandescent on March 14, 2024, 11:47:55 am
Quote
So I have no grounds apart from paying the pcn?
Well, you don't seem to have any of the statutory grounds for PCN cancellation, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't submit representations to the council. These would be based on your narrative in your first post. They will inevitably refuse these, but may make a fatal error in their response that then gives you grounds for cancellation. One of the statutory grounds is "procedural impropriety", meaning they have not followed the enforcement procedure laid down in the Act and its associated regulations.

So I would submit reps. If you submit these within the discount period they will re-offer it.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on March 14, 2024, 10:08:05 am
So I have no grounds apart from paying the pcn?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Incandescent on March 14, 2024, 09:33:15 am
So basically there is no courtesy from the warden's side to ask the driver to leave as the car was manned?
Courtesy ?  That disappeared 30 years ago when councils realised they had been given a Magic Money Tree ! Parking enforcement now concentrates 95% on getting the money in, with traffic management 5%. Back in the day, when we had Traffic Wardens who came under police control, you'd have been asked to move on, no doubt about it. The key difference then was that all parking fines went to the government, the police did not receive any of the fines money.
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on March 14, 2024, 09:15:13 am
So basically there is no courtesy from the warden's side to ask the driver to leave as the car was manned?
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on March 13, 2024, 01:25:29 pm
Thank you. Below is the 2nd part of the PCN.

https://ibb.co/nrMh8tY

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: taffer87 on March 13, 2024, 10:28:50 am
unfortunately pavement parking in London is prohibited generally except where specifically allowed - no observation time is needed and what you describe are mitigating circumstances which won't stand at tribunal stage

Worth writing informal challenge to the council in the discount window of course

lets see if someone here can find technical issues

Plz post both sides of PCN
Title: Hounslow Council PCN - Cecil road
Post by: Sonu rocks on March 13, 2024, 09:58:47 am
Hello,

The driver had parked as the child was feeling ill and wanted to throw up. The driver exited the car to see if her child had thrown up and to provide some water. In the meantime, the parking attendant (very trickily whilst looking elsewhere) took the pictures and he was in such a rush to take the pictures that he had not filled the column on the PCN where he had to mention the colour of the car. The pictures he took are very blurred (even the number plate is not clear) showing the intention and cruelty of the parking warden. The warden did not want to listen to anything when spoken to.

Please see photos:

https://ibb.co/8MMWZNt
https://ibb.co/zRB1CC6
https://ibb.co/CPfgdd3
https://ibb.co/hXVqbBK
https://ibb.co/7SkW066
https://ibb.co/pZx8c49
https://ibb.co/vZNGst8

Thank you in advance.