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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: LemmyC on March 11, 2024, 09:35:25 pm

Title: Re: Lancashire County Council, Preston, Contravention 26 parked in a special enforcement area
Post by: LemmyC on July 03, 2024, 07:57:21 pm

Brilliant outcome thank you!

I'm a little surprised the cost was rejected, but I guess from another angle there has also already been enough cost to the tax payer without further burden being added on a potentially ambiguous spot/space.

Appreciate all the help and advice from everyone too!

Title: Re: Lancashire County Council, Preston, Contravention 26 parked in a special enforcement area
Post by: cp8759 on July 03, 2024, 01:23:43 pm

Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-kcnaDcq8BmBKqNr96rSEotVjWCdQ8QK/view).

The costs application was a bit of a long-shot but it was worth a try.

Title: Re: Lancashire County Council, Preston, Contravention 26 parked in a special enforcement area
Post by: H C Andersen on May 22, 2024, 03:14:28 pm

Rather reminds me of this:

The way I see it, these days there's a war on, right? and, ages ago, there wasn't a war on, right? So, there must have been a moment when there not being a war on went away, right? and there being a war on came along.

Do you mean "How did the war start?


Just change 'not being a war' to not being a carriageway.....' and 'Do you mean 'Where does the carriageway end?'

Or, to put it another way, why has the Highway Authority allowed and condoned someone erecting a b****y big gate across the carriageway effectively stopping motorists and other legitimate users exercising their legal right to pass over the carriageway which is the only possible interpretation which can be put on the enforcement authority's reasoning that the gate does not represent the edge of the carriageway.

Title: Re: Lancashire County Council, Preston, Contravention 26 parked in a special enforcement area
Post by: LemmyC on May 22, 2024, 12:03:10 am

That would be great thanks!

It's one thing representing yourself to council, but it's feels a lot more intimidating when it gets to the tribunal point.

Yeah the gate/barrier has been what I would consider the edge of the carriageway in the absence of markings, not to mention front passenger side proximity to the curb in front of the car.  So surely it would at least be distinguishing between the edge of the carriageway and private land?

I've responded to your DM with the details you've asked for now.
If there is anything else please let me know.

I can accept paying a penalty when I make a mistake and they issue a PCN for a valid contravention as at least it would be more understandable.  I get the point of the contravention they've alleged I've broken, just not how they've managed to come to the conclusion none of the vehicle is within 50cm of the edge of the carriageway at it's rear, side or front without measuring it before moving to the next step.

Again, thanks for everyone's help no matter the outcome!

Title: Re: Lancashire County Council, Preston, Contravention 26 parked in a special enforcement area
Post by: cp8759 on May 16, 2024, 12:10:08 am

@LemmyC this council is incredibly thick, as Grant Urismo point out even if the edge of the carriageway isn't shown by the dotted line, then it must be at worst the gate which is plainly less than 50 cm from your car.

I think this is an almost certain win at the tribunal and I'll be happy to represent you if you'd like me to, I'll drop you a PM with a few details.

Title: Re: Lancashire County Council, Preston, Contravention 26 parked in a special enforcement area
Post by: Grant Urismo on May 11, 2024, 10:55:26 am

They are just trying it on in the hope that you'll fold. If they are right and the edge of the carriageway isn't the painted line, then the only other possibility is that it's the gate, which is clearly closer than 50cm.

You'll win this if you stick to the process.

Title: Re: Lancashire County Council, Preston, Contravention 26 parked in a special enforcement area
Post by: LemmyC on May 11, 2024, 03:39:03 am

Hi,

Got a v.quick reply to my surprise.
Just not the outcome I was hoping for unfortunately.

I've uploaded quick photos of the decision outcome letter here: https://flic.kr/ps/43VQcV


I can see at least appealing is free, other than the PCN charge itself if lose? 
https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/faq/#:~:text=Submitting%20an%20appeal%20to%20the,if%20you%20lose%20your%20appeal
It's certainly intimidating if all they're wanting to do is forcing it to tribunal as a fear tactic though. 

One thing I think I've missed is mentioning the front passenger side distance although I tried querying how they measured the distance was in excess of 50cm but that was part of a 2nd informal challenge which was just given a reply of can't make 2nd informal. 
It seems strange if it can be claimed to be more than 50cm without actually measuring it, but to enforce this contravention requires the officer to be able to distinguish between for eg 30 or 45cm and 50cm+ as I couldn't see anything measuring device in the images taken by the officer, and I foolishly didn't get a tape measure out to check, or demonstrate the actual distance as being less than 50cm somewhere - most likely front passenger side to a curb which seems to be what is taken as the edge of the carriageway in this instance with the poor road markings?


I'll be glad to hear thoughts etc. 
I can't say I want to give up and just pay if they're legitimately in the wrong or due to ambiguity with poor signage/marking for that spot, or some of the others in the area.  I don't want to just waste everyone's time either.

Although it'd be a shame to lose that spot after I've been using it for years to visit someone and because they fixed anything they need to ofc, but at least it would remove any ambiguity and a few of the neighbours of the person I visit are curious of the outcome funnily.  I've only seen a vehicle in it twice since my PCN but neither had received a ticket at the time I passed.  It is funny seeing them mention forcing pedestrians onto the road though as we don't know of any occasion seeing a PCN issued to a vehicle parked on the pavement of busy main road few mins walk away, Aquaduct Street https://maps.app.goo.gl/V7Z44Rz6exCL1bZc6 should show examples in the streetview 2018, 2017, 2016.
 
 
Again, I appreciate everyone's help and advice so far


Thanks

Title: Re: Lancashire County Council, Preston, Contravention 26 parked in a special enforcement area
Post by: LemmyC on May 08, 2024, 07:55:04 pm

Thanks!


I've sent my submission and taken screenshot as suggested, just in case of IT issues.

Really appreciate all your advice on this.

I'll update with the outcome, hopefully not too long to wait.

Title: Re: Lancashire County Council, Preston, Contravention 26 parked in a special enforcement area
Post by: cp8759 on May 02, 2024, 12:12:20 am

@LemmyC you can just copy & paste:

Dear Lancashire County Council,

This is a ridiculous PCN that should obviously be cancelled. My car cannot have been parked more than 50 cm from the edge of the carriageway because my vehicle was parked literally on top of the edge of the carriageway. I was technically parked on a vehicle crossover and this does not interrupt the pavement or extent the carriageway, but in this instance the council has even provided a handy road marking showing where the edge of the carriageway is, I have highlighted this in the attached picture.

In light of this it would be wholly unreasonable for the authority to reject this representation.

Yours faithfully,

Send this online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page. Obviously upload the photo I've posted with your representation. If a line is "decommissioned" they should remove it properly, but in any case the edge of the carriageway continues to be where it is regardless of whether there are any lines or markings.

Title: Re: Lancashire County Council, Preston, Contravention 26 parked in a special enforcement area
Post by: LemmyC on May 01, 2024, 02:28:00 am

Thanks.

Decided it's worth to make representations. 

NTO was issued on 11/04/24 and I think I received it around the 13th or 15th IIRC.  I've left it a bit late really, but think I've piled enough 'pressure' on myself to motivate me to actually take the next step and not just let it get to late to challenge and just pay last min.

I think you're probably right regarding they typed incorrect code 26 instead of 62, although I had thought those yellow lines had been decommissioned for lack of a better word.  Some can be vaguely seen in the photo's I'd taken, 1 to the rear/behind front driver wheel and slightly on the outer side, the other in the at the time empty parking permit bay (https://flic.kr/p/2pCQNv6) and (https://flic.kr/p/2pCT5zk).

I guess my biggest worry is not getting across all the points that need to be got across to ensure it is cancelled ideally without the need to challenge it further. 

If there is any advice on preparing representation email/letter all is appreciated.

Thanks

Title: Re: Lancashire County Council, Preston, Contravention 26 parked in a special enforcement area
Post by: cp8759 on March 30, 2024, 11:42:28 pm

@LemmyC you were parked on what is technically a vehicle crossover, such crossovers do not alter the boundary of the carriageway or interrupt the footpath, indeed the council has even provided a handy road marking showing where the edge of the carriageway is:

(https://i.imgur.com/MwvG3jZ.png)

If you'd parked in this way in London, they could have issued a PCN for code 62 "Parked with one or more wheels on or over a footpath or any part of a road other than a carriageway" because most of your car is parked on the footpath than on the carriageway, as your car is partly on the footpath and partly on the carriageway the distance between the edge of the carriageway and the car is zero.

If the appeal to the tribunal is argued properly the chances of the council enforcing this PCN are probably also somewhere between zero and nil.

Title: Re: Lancashire County Council, Preston, Contravention 26 parked in a special enforcement area
Post by: Pastmybest on March 20, 2024, 11:08:01 am

Your chances of winning are so high IMO it would be foolish not to wait for the NTO

Title: Re: Lancashire County Council, Preston, Contravention 26 parked in a special enforcement area
Post by: Incandescent on March 19, 2024, 09:58:18 pm

Well, actually, they may be the ones who have shot themselves in the foot by saying this: -

Quote

We are unable to reconsider your grounds for appeal at the present time as we have
already responded to an informal challenge you recently submitted.

This is not correct in law, there is nothing to stop them considering a second informal representation. However are you willing to take the "double-or-quits gamble of waiting for the Notice to Owner ?

Title: Re: Lancashire County Council, Preston, Contravention 26 parked in a special enforcement area
Post by: LemmyC on March 19, 2024, 05:09:40 pm

Hi,

So I sent a further message, unfortunately it seems I've shot myself in the foot when I first challenged it?
This is the reply I've had today:

"
Email: parking@lancashire.gov.uk
Our Ref: LPSHU
Date: 19 March 2024
Traffic Management Act 2004
Penalty Charge Notice: LQ5257303A
Vehicle Registration Number: NL62BLX
Make: NISSAN
Date and Time of Contravention: 06/03/2024 at 09:28
Location: CARLTON STREET(PRESTON)
Parking Contravention: 26 Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50
centimetres from the edge of the carriageway and not within a designated parking
place

Dear ****
Thank you for your further correspondence challenging your Penalty Charge Notice
(PCN).

We are unable to reconsider your grounds for appeal at the present time as we have
already responded to an informal challenge you recently submitted. The next stage of the
appeal is to make a formal representation against the charge. This cannot be made until
the registered owner/keeper receives the Notice to Owner form which we are not
permitted to issue prior to 28 days after the PCN was issued.

Once this form has been completed and received by us your grounds for representation
will be considered by a different team to ensure fairness and consistency in the appeals
process.

Please refer to our previous response for the options available to you now.
The photographs provided to you in our previous correspondence clearly show your
vehicle was parked in contravention.

You now have the following choices:

- You can pay the discounted rate of £35.00 if payment is received by **24/3/2024**.
Payment will close the case and you will be unable to make a further challenge against
the charge.
- You will be required to pay the full amount of £70.00 if payment is received after this
date. Payment will close the case and you will be unable to make a further challenge
against the charge.
- You can continue to contest the charge. If payment is not received within the 28 days
from the date of the Penalty Charge Notice, we will send the registered owner/keeper a
Notice to Owner form. This will offer you the opportunity to pay the full charge or to
submit a formal representation against the charge by completing and returning the form.
- Should your formal representation be unsuccessful, you will be able to take your appeal
to an independent adjudicator.

How to pay:
- By phone on 0300 600 0010. Lines are open all day, every day (24 hours). Please
have your PCN number and credit or debit card ready. There will be no extra charge for
using your card to make payment. Please note that some card types may not be
accepted.
- Online at www.lancashire.gov.uk/parking and click ‘pay online’.

Yours sincerely,
pp. Peter Bell
Regulation & Enforcement Manager
"

I've uploaded it here: https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjBi6oc
Any advice or am I best just paying this now before the penalty increases?

Thanks

Title: Re: Lancashire County Council, Preston, Contravention 26 parked in a special enforcement area
Post by: LemmyC on March 13, 2024, 06:48:43 pm

Hi,

Thanks for having a look.

I've added 3more photos to the album of the pics/letter https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjBhbXV
(Just noticed I've pasted the wrong URL originally for the pics and letter sorry)

The GSV images should be Nov 2022.  The signs for the '2hr park & no return within 2hr' have only very recently, this year been changed to say "MB1 Permit Holders Only" the same as on Carlton street in the street view. 

I've checked for any additional signage saying the area itself is permit only at:
  The Abbey St/Ashton St entrance leading to 1 end of Carlton St,
  Both ends of Priory St (Carlton St and Ashton St ends)
  Both junctions from Fylde Rd/A583 for Carlton St and also Ashton St

I didn't see any extra signs warning of the permit area from these

Thanks

Title: Re: Lancashire County Council, Preston, Contravention 26 parked in a special enforcement area
Post by: Incandescent on March 12, 2024, 12:48:11 am

Looking at this, I think the CEO made an error and pressed the wrong option on his terminal. You are certainly not 50cm from the edge of the carriageway at all, but I do suspect you are in a Permit Parking zone. However, they cannot re-issue the PCN with the correct contravention. GSB is not sufficiently up-to-date, so we need to see the signs on the bays, and also, have a look at where you turned off the main road for a sign that may show it is a parking zone of some sort.

Anyway, see what the others say, before sending in any representations, but don't miss any deadlines on the PCN.

Title: Lancashire County Council, Preston, Contravention 26 parked in a special enforcement area
Post by: LemmyC on March 11, 2024, 09:35:25 pm

Hi,

I've been reading over the forum re contravention 26 but think I need to seek advice before respond further since my initial challenge hasn't been accepted.

I was issued a PCN at 09:28 on 06/03/24.

CONTRAVENTION CODE 26:
"PARKED IN A SPECIAL ENFORCEMENT AREA MORE THAN 50CM FROM THE EDGE OF THE CARRIAGEWAY AND NOT WITHIN A DESIGNATED PARKING PLACE"


Please check the Link for the CEO's Photos and street view

Street View & PCN Pictures
CEO photos, PCN itself & challenge response: https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjBh8o4
my photos and initial challenge letter: https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjBh8o4
Streetview: https://maps.app.goo.gl/K6ECreNLGvWaJo5F8

Any advice on whether to challenge further and how is greatly appreciated. 

I'm unsure if it is worth asking for evidence showing the vehicle is measured to be more than 50cm away from the curb at the rear (or any other carriageway edge), also I'm unsure re that gate/fence and whether in the absence of road markings that border can be taken as an edge?

It's a space that I'm not alone in using for the last decade when visiting there (Abbey street), as all other areas have been turned into permit parking and the 2hr parking bay behind the rear of the car has now been made permit only no exception as well which is awkward for guests etc.   I'm pretty sure all residents here have issues since there are not enough spaces for the number of households anyway, but it's the first time I've seen anyone ticketed where my car was.

Depending on advice, I may have to find another space for when visiting that street or be extremely careful to ensure it without a doubt stopped within 50cm of the curb etc.

If there is anything else I need to provide please let me know.

Thanks in advance.