Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Cgehansen on July 03, 2023, 10:29:12 pm

Title: Re: Haringey PCN for parking in suspended bay with obscured signage
Post by: Cgehansen on July 10, 2023, 08:35:13 pm

That would be great, thank you. I'll make a donation to North London Hospice if we win. There were some minor works that day but on the other side of the road and after 2pm.

Title: Re: Haringey PCN for parking in suspended bay with obscured signage
Post by: mrmustard on July 10, 2023, 11:37:54 am

I don't lose against haringey when it comes to suspended bays (or almost anything else!) so please send me a clear scan of the Notice to owner upon receipt and I can take over for you CGEHansen.

Title: Re: Haringey PCN for parking in suspended bay with obscured signage
Post by: cp8759 on July 10, 2023, 11:30:43 am

Council response to information request:

The carriageway resurfacing works on Inderwick Road which commenced on the 24th May 2023 are part of Haringey’s ongoing Maintenance Programme which falls under the borough wide maintenance traffic regulation order. I have attached a copy of the borough wide maintenance traffic regulation order, notice of intention, notice of making which were advertised in the Enfield & Haringey Independent and emails which were sent to the emergency services. Once dates are programmed for the specific maintenance works, site notices are displayed on site and notification is sent to emergency services by the maintenance team. I have attached a photo of the site notices which were displayed on the 18th May 2023 and a copy of the distribution email which was sent to the emergency services notifying them of the works.

The order is The Haringey (Borough Wide Installation and Maintenance of Traffic, Highways and Arboricultural Infrastructure) (Temporary Prohibition of Traffic) Order 2023 (https://bit.ly/44hILPK).

Notice of intent:

(https://i.imgur.com/Urrt0xx.png)

Notice order made:

(https://i.imgur.com/6uhgwlc.png)

Notification of intent to police fire and ambulance:

(https://i.imgur.com/vHlmoxY.png)

Notification of order to police fire and ambulance:

(https://i.imgur.com/TFqXsir.png)

Internal email:

(https://i.imgur.com/ZNTpuwL.png)

Spreadsheet attached to internal email: https://bit.ly/3O5Q8nH


Photos of signs taken at time of installation:

(https://i.imgur.com/En7lkKZ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/CCpftzh.jpg)

Looks like one ripe for Mr Mustard's blanket TTRO argument.

Title: Re: Haringey PCN for parking in suspended bay with obscured signage
Post by: Cgehansen on July 04, 2023, 07:23:19 pm

Thank you. That's very helpful. The most annoying thing is the suspension was to carry out work which was actually done after the suspension had ended.

Title: Re: Haringey PCN for parking in suspended bay with obscured signage
Post by: cp8759 on July 04, 2023, 05:56:02 pm

If you wait for the Notice to Owner and then challenge it within 14 days of the date of issue, the council will re-offer the discount to discourage you from appealing to the tribunal (they don't tell you this now because they'd rather you paid sooner rather than later).

I have requested all the relevant information about the TTRO, if it's one of those silly blanket TTROs then Mr Mustard has a good argument, and there are very strict rules in The Road Traffic (Temporary Restrictions) Procedure Regulations 1992 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/1215/contents/made) which they have to follow to make a temporary order, so I would definitely carry on at this point.

Title: Re: Haringey PCN for parking in suspended bay with obscured signage
Post by: Cgehansen on July 04, 2023, 12:36:09 pm

Yes I'm a permit holder. The PCN number is ZN07622991 and the registration LL57ZHB. I parked 34 minutes after the start of the suspension. Normally I would notice parking suspension signs but this one was partially hidden and didn't catch my eye when I parked up. This is the locate on google street view https://goo.gl/maps/MBUQ88fPdQQ4kFEj8

[attachment deleted by admin]

Title: Re: Haringey PCN for parking in suspended bay with obscured signage
Post by: guest179 on July 04, 2023, 08:34:52 am

Although the geographical extent of this post is the area of the parking place, this isn't parking suspension as such, it's a TTO-imposed variation to pre-existing permissions/restrictions.

OP, what's been asked for would at least allow us to see the exact wording of the notice. If there isn't one in evidence then the council have no case, the sign could just recite a nursery rhyme for all an adjudicator would know.

You have no argument regarding visibility IMO because it was your obligation to check the existing traffic signs anyway...which leads to the issue of prior notice. Presumably you are a permit holder, hence their comment about advance notice. Can you elaborate on this e.g. are you a permit holder, are you a resident in the street or do you live elsewhere, how often do you use parking places in this area etc?

Title: Re: Haringey PCN for parking in suspended bay with obscured signage
Post by: cp8759 on July 03, 2023, 11:53:30 pm

You need to give us the PCN number and the number plate so that we can have a look at the council photos.

You also need to give us a link to the exact location on google street view, we need this so that we can order the parking suspension logs.

To the best of your recollection, when did you park exactly?

There's no point in paying now as the council will re-offer the discount at the Notice to Owner stage as long as you challenge the Notice to Owner within 14 days of the date of issue.

Title: Re: Haringey PCN for parking in suspended bay with obscured signage
Post by: Cgehansen on July 03, 2023, 11:22:02 pm

Sorry this link should work https://flic.kr/ps/2ZXZyq

Title: Re: Haringey PCN for parking in suspended bay with obscured signage
Post by: Rudess on July 03, 2023, 10:35:23 pm

None of your links work. Please check the URLs

Title: Haringey PCN for parking in suspended bay with obscured signage
Post by: Cgehansen on July 03, 2023, 10:29:12 pm

I received a PCN a few weeks ago for parking in a suspended residents parking bay. I didn't notice the sign probably because it was partially hidden behind a resident's parking sign from the direction that I approached.

The Council have rejected my informal appeal on the basis that "street signs at this location are lowered because of a preservation order in place. It is for this reason that the signs are not raised on posts and more clearly visible." and that "there is still enough yellow in sight to draw your eye".

Here are Haringey's own evidence photos of the sign which show it partially obscured https://www.flickr.com/photos/131232182@N08...ares/wJ5Xpa7083 https://www.flickr.com/photos/131232182@N08...ares/n60N8Hjf86. I wasn't the only person to miss it and get a PCN that day.

Is it worth taking this further and appealing after receiving a NTO? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I don't want to lose the opportunity of the discount on the PCN if an appeal is unlikely to be upheld.

Here's the PCN https://www.flickr.com/photos/131232182@N08...ares/e289ur8713 and Haringey's rejection letter https://www.flickr.com/photos/131232182@N08...ares/F0g77t72qA https://www.flickr.com/photos/131232182@N08...ares/oFyA1ar530