Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: DIP181394 on March 01, 2024, 01:21:40 am
-
This is the second penalty notice I received but that was while coming back, as I was new to the area I was using google maps, and the map directed me to us Chobham road, and by the time I saw the sign i was too far down the street to be able to turn back.
Can I use the same representation for this too penalty as per the below as the contravention is of the same kind and on the same day just roughly an hour apart.
Looking forward to hearing from you cp8759, also thank u so much for all your help so far,
Video for PN74336709:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ymN0AUBFOA
No you cannot use the same representation, coming the other way you aren't turning into the signs as you approach them head-on.
So why did you drive past the signs, did you not know what they mean? Or did you just think there wouldn't be a CCTV camera?
For the record, it has been extremely unhelpful that you had two PCNs and never actually spelt that out. I'm going to leave them both on this thread as they're related to the same journey and the thread is intertwined, but really you should have spelt this out from the start.
Also do you have a copy of the hire agreement? If so, we need to see it please.
-
@cp8759 I was abled to submit the appeal for one of the penalties using formal representations option on the council portal.
I just wanted to check the charge to pay will be locked in at £65 as I appealed within my 14 days? Or will that increase to the full price?
@DIP181394 with the best will in the world, you should forget about the discount. Yes the council will reoffer it to dissuade you from appealing to the tribunal, but it's only at the tribunal that you will get a fair hearing, so frankly the discount is just a distraction.
-
This is the second penalty notice I received but that was while coming back, as I was new to the area I was using google maps, and the map directed me to us Chobham road, and by the time I saw the sign i was too far down the street to be able to turn back.
Can I use the same representation for this too penalty as per the below as the contravention is of the same kind and on the same day just roughly an hour apart.
Looking forward to hearing from you cp8759, also thank u so much for all your help so far,
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
@cp8759 I was abled to submit the appeal for one of the penalties using formal representations option on the council portal.
I just wanted to check the charge to pay will be locked in at £65 as I appealed within my 14 days? Or will that increase to the full price?
I received the below email:
“ Thank you for your representation, which has been allocated to the above Penalty Charge Notice. The case is now on hold until a response is sent to you either by email (if an email address has been provided) or by post.
Where a PCN is issued under the Traffic Management Act (TMA) 2004, the council will respond to your challenge within 56 days of the date it was received.
If you challenge your penalty charge notice within 14 days from the date of service of the notice, known as an informal challenge where the notice was placed on the vehicle or handed to the driver. Then it will then be held at the reduced rate and a further 14 days will be given, from the date of our correspondence, to pay at the reduced rate if your challenge is not accepted.
Any PCNs issued by a camera, such as bus lanes, no entry restrictions, motor vehicle restriction zones, pedestrian zones in pursuant to the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984 (as amended), London Local Authorities 1996 and Transport for London Act 2003 will be responded to as soon as possible. There is no corresponding provision within the Acts relating to bus lane and moving traffic contraventions which require that an Enforcement Authority must respond within a statutory time limit.”
-
@cp8759 I have tried to use the councils online portal to appeal but i keep getting plank screen and the web page description says representation denied. i have tried to call the council a few times but their lines are always busy.
Is there a possibility that I can appeal any other way pls
-
Video for PN74336695:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eidziYud4Q
@DIP181394 please stop adding documents as attachments, there is a detailed guide here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) on how to post images.
Here's a draft representation:
---START---
Dear London Borough of Newham,
I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. There is no advance warning signage on Leytonstone Road so once a driver is committed to the turn, there is little to no chance to take an alternative route.
Furthermore, the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 require diagram 619 signs to be illuminated during the hours of darkness, but no such illumination is present.
It follows that the penalty charge must be cancelled.
---END---
I'd expect the council to reject but you can then appeal to the tribunal, I've won at this location before.
Send the representation online via https://parking.newham.gov.uk/Pages/OnlineReferenceEntry.aspx?loadtype=FORMAL and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
-
@cp8759 pls find attached the full doc as requested.
(https://i.imgur.com/VdLBLYd.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/tt8ScgV.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/JJpYd1u.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/hfxg2Sy.png)
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Please post up the remaining pages (often mistakes in 'small print').
-
I have just received the attached notice from the council which suggests £65 within 14 days.
I really appreciate your help with drafting the representation.
Thank you
(https://i.imgur.com/8rvBJ7A.png)
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Thanks.
That worked I can see its still £204.
Will
Keep checking.
-
@cp8759 pls find attached the message I get when I try searching for PCN.
I have no idea what you're doing, you need to look up the PCN on this page: https://parking.newham.gov.uk/pages/OnlineReferenceEntry.aspx?loadtype=NOTICEREVIEW
-
@cp8759 pls find attached the message I get when I try searching for PCN.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
@DIP181394 check the amount due on https://parking.newham.gov.uk/ once a week, as soon as it drops down to £65 let us know and I will draft a representation for you.
-
Do nothing.
-
@cp8759 pls can you help me confirm as per the previously attached response from county court if I should contact the council or just wait for them to write to me?
Thanks
-
I have received the attached letter.
Should I contact the council or just wait for them to come back.
Their lines are usually really busy and its so hard to get hold of them.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
@DIP181394 any update?
-
Hey,
Thanks
I have received the form in the post and tomorrow is my last day.
We haven't seen any "form"? Why did you think the 7th was your last day?
Did you get the application completed and e-mailed?
What did TEC say meanwhile?
These were not difficult questions.
You cannot afford to mess about with the process at this late stage.
-
Hey,
Thanks
I have received the form in the post and tomorrow is my last day.
We haven't seen any "form"? Why did you think the 7th was your last day?
Did you get the application completed and e-mailed?
What did TEC say meanwhile?
-
Hey
Yes I have a local solicitor who can help sign the form they usually have a walk in service so I should be able to get a time tomorrow.
Thank you
-
@DIP181394 as the guide tells you the "reasons" box must be left blank.
If tomorrow is the last day, have you got an appointment at the county court to get the form sworn? If not, walk into any high-street solicitors and ask if there's anyone available to witness it for you, the £5 / £10 fee is well worth the hassle it will save you.
You must email the form to tec@justice.gov.uk before 4 pm.
-
"In time" declarations don't need reasons.
-
Hey,
Thanks
I have received the form in the post and tomorrow is my last day.
I am not sure what I should write in the sections that says your reasons.
It’s a tiny box I will not be able to fit everything in the box.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
-
@DIP181394 I've reposted your letter with your address redacted, as you really shouldn't publish that online.
As it's a transfer of liability case we can likely get it cancelled altogether (no need to pay the £65 charge if you don't have to), but you must:
1) Stop contacting the council,
2) stop phoning the council,
3) stop trusting anything the council says.
The main issue is most people who work for the council have no idea how any of this works, so even if they're genuinely trying to help you they will almost always give you the wrong information (and the information they have given you so far is in fact wrong).
Urgent next steps: The amount due is at £204 which means the PCN has already been registered with the traffic enforcement centre, this means that unless you get a move on and do something about it you could end up with enforcement agents coming to collect the debt. You must act now to stop this from happening.
Call the traffic enforcement centre first thing on Tuesday morning on 0300 123 1059 and ask if you are still able to file an "in-time" statutory declaration (do not ask anything else, they cannot help you with any other query whatsoever). If they say yes, ask them how long you have left. By my calculation you might have a few days left but you're likely on the absolute limit of how much time is allowed.
If TEC confirms you are still able to make a statutory declaration "in-time" (rather than an out of time one) please read the guide here https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-local-autho/ but jump to the part that starts with "As soon as the debt has been registered, use form PE3..." and follow the steps described in the guide.
If TEC tells you you need to make an out-of-time application, let us know ASAP and we'll have to help you draft an out-of-time application, which unfortunately is a lot more involved.
If TEC tells you that Tuesday is your final day to make a declaration, it's really on you to pull out all the stops to get this done, even if it means going to your local high-street solicitor and paying a £10 fee to get the form witnessed. Better this than paying £500 to a bailiff.
-
Hi all
Apologies for my delayed response.
Attached is the letter i received from the council and this was the only letter i received from them.
(https://i.imgur.com/Jdmr1aE.jpeg)
-
@DIP181394 please show us the paperwork as advised by taffer87.
-
please upload the documents as per:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
-
Wrong forum, a Mod' will move it to the council forum for you.
-
I hired a car for 3 days in Nov 23, I drove on a road that had a restriction for 2 days in a row following google maps and I did not notice the sign. Following my return of the vehicle I was informed by the hire company I have penalties i.e 4 penalties back and forth on 2 days, of which I paid 2 immediately as I had the PCN number and the transfer of liability was not processed. However the other 2 penalties council informed me there is a request for transfer of liability and I should wait, and I will still get the 14 days discount period.
I did not receive any letters till Jan 24 therefore I call the council request to see if there are any penalties in my name at which point they said they cant hep without the PCN which of course I didn't have at hand because of they never wrote to me. I now in feb received a letter demanding £195 as i didn't pay within the 28 days, so i called them today to inform i never received the first and that I cannot appeal online anymore, so what will be the best course of action.
I was put on hold for quiet sometime only for the guy to come back and say they will reduce it down to £130 each, when i requested to understand why not £65 i was told its because when there is a transfer of liability you don't get the discount which i contested and requested information on where I can see this written down, at which point I was informed I cannot appeal on the call, but the reason why they cant the charge to £65 as I have committed the same offence more than once. "you have been doing the same thing again and again".
I understand I should have paid attention to the road signs and not follow google maps blindly therefore I don't mind paying the charges but to pay £195 when I didn't receive the PCN, and to then not be given the chance to pay 50% less as I committed the same offence more than once, is something I don't understand. I was told I now need to wait to receive the letter from court and appeal this to the court who will also charge me additional fees.
Since I received these PCN I have never driven through that restricted area.
Please can someone help me understand if it is a rule that the council can decide to not offer 50% discount if you have committed the same offence more than once.