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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: twigtwig on February 29, 2024, 04:30:49 pm

Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on June 11, 2025, 09:48:06 pm
Hi HC Anderson,
Well we were just worried that they may try and come back on the ticket - but as they can't enforce past 56 days, am I best just to let sleeping dogs lie?
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: H C Andersen on June 11, 2025, 09:20:49 pm
De jure the PCN is dead. De facto, the bozos at York haven't updated their systems.

Personally, I don't see the point in 'complaining' based upon them not responding within 56 days. You don't need their confirmation.

(7) If the enforcement authority fails to comply with the requirements specified in paragraph (4) within the 56-day period—

(a)it is deemed for the purposes of these Regulations to have accepted the representations made by the recipient, and

(b)it must—

(i)cancel the relevant enforcement notice,

(ii)refund any sum paid in relation to it, and

(iii)serve a notice on the recipient informing the recipient that the enforcement notice has been cancelled because the enforcement authority failed to serve a decision notice in accordance with paragraph (4)(b).


The law has deemed the PCN dead. Your complaint is that they haven't written to to confirm that something which the law has deemed to have occurred has.

Why are you bothered?

Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on June 11, 2025, 06:54:58 pm
Hello all.

York Council replied again to my complaint today with the following:

Quote
Thank you for your email,
 
We intend, where possible, to deal with all complaints using our '4Cs' procedure. The only exceptions are for statutory and legal reasons, such as a complaint that has already been heard by a court or tribunal, or a complaint where the customer or the council has commenced legal proceedings or has taken court action.
 
Our '4Cs' procedure is not applicable to services which have specific procedures governing their complaints and appeals, such as: objecting or challenging a PCN
 
Please find attached the link below for challenging a PCN.
 
https://www.york.gov.uk/PCNAppeals
 
I have also forwarded you details over to are parking team

Quite surprised, as I last heard from them 9 months ago! The PCN is still under review on their website.

I was going to reply back to them and say that we have already challenged the PCN - our complaint is with the fact is that Parking Services haven't replied to our message challenge to the NTO from April 2024.
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on September 05, 2024, 12:18:08 pm
Hi all,

Just an update - I received an email today from my email sent on 2nd July to haveyoursay@york, requesting an update on my representations, who have stated the following:

Quote
Wednesday 4th September 2024, 3:19 pm
From: parking@york.gov.uk
To: xxx

RE: Parking Ticket

Thank you for your email. I have checked the penalty charge notice you reference and can see that the case is currently awaiting review by parking management. Unfortunately parking management currently are experiencing very heavy workflow which has resulted in delay in these cases being reviewed. Please be assured that the case is on hold and no action will be taken until the case has been reviewed.

Yours Sincerely,

Parking Services City of York Council
| Customer Business and Support Services West Offices, Station Rise, York YO1 6GA

I'm guessing plan of action is just to wait and see what happens next, but if we need to go to tribunal, then we will win as not replied to the notice within the 56 day timeframe? Cheers all.
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: cp8759 on July 01, 2024, 02:45:20 pm
You can raise a complaint by writing to haveyoursay@york.gov.uk

You must start by spelling out that your complaint is not about the PCN and you are not asking under the complaints procedure for the PCN to be cancelled, you must make it very clear that you are merely complaining about the fact that you have not received a response. Therefore you must ask that the outcome of the complaint is that you are sent a response to your representations.

I'd suggest posting a draft on here first.
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on July 01, 2024, 10:32:46 am
Of course, please see attached link.

https://www.dropbox.com/t/8Er8xpd4Yd2jLtCw
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: cp8759 on June 30, 2024, 11:56:22 pm
Can we see this acknowledgment please?

In any case you're now safe to chase up for a reply, as any notice of rejection would be out of time at this point.
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on June 30, 2024, 11:11:20 pm
Hello both. All comms from York have been via email. They sent through the Notice of Acknowledgement on 20th May, but nothing further received since then.
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: cp8759 on June 30, 2024, 10:59:23 pm
@twigtwig there is no appeal, you've only made a representation.

This is the PCN history on the council website:

(https://i.imgur.com/7pZmAkZ.png)

Did you ever get this "acknowledgment letter"?

In any case it seems they've missed the 56 day deadline to issue a notice of rejection.
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: Incandescent on June 30, 2024, 07:40:21 pm
In theory, yes, but have you checked the status of the PCN. You should be able to see this on their website.  At the moment, a response to your formal reps may be in Royal Mail hands as I type. Postal delays seem to be commonplace nowadays.
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on June 30, 2024, 07:17:04 pm
Hi all, the appeal was submitted on 30th April. If I understand correctly, the council have 56 days to respond to it.

Am I correct in thinking that 56 days from 30th April would have been 28th June, and since this date has passed, the appeal will be allowed? Thank you.
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on April 30, 2024, 12:05:35 am
Done, many thanks CP.
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: cp8759 on April 27, 2024, 05:58:55 pm
@twigtwig here you go:

Dear City of York Council,

I rely on my informal representation which I require you to reconsider afresh. Furthermore, there has been an additional procedural impropriety because the notice to owner does not satisfy the requirements of regulation 20(3)(a) or (d) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging Guidelines and General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022 and instead it contains contradictory information in this regard.

Finally the notice does not conform to regulation 3(2)(f) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022, and plainly an authority cannot discharge its duty of conveying information that the notice "must" convey by saying that the information will be provided at a later date in some other document. This is a further procedural impropriety.

Yours faithfully,

Send this online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on April 22, 2024, 09:21:53 pm
@twigtwig please post all the remaining pages of the notice to owner, as we need to check everything. Also re-post the first page with just your name and address redacted.

My mistake CP, - full Notice To Owner attached.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/c3njixafsawtyju7slkx3/Notice-To-Owner-Redacted.pdf?rlkey=nqoss3bpnc1zdhn86zzz4kmcw&dl=0

Thank you,
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: cp8759 on April 21, 2024, 08:04:22 pm
@twigtwig please post all the remaining pages of the notice to owner, as we need to check everything. Also re-post the first page with just your name and address redacted.
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on April 18, 2024, 07:26:32 pm
Hello all.

The Notice To Owner has arrived. I was planning to submit an appeal on the grounds from the first informal appeal namely;

Quote
It does not contain the necessary information which is set out in The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022, under which the ticket has been issued.

The regulations prescribe in Chapter 3 Section 1, information about the motorists’ rights to make representations or appeal, which must be included in regulation 9 penalty charge notices and enforcement notices.

3.—(1) A regulation 9 penalty charge notice must include the following information—

(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served may, in accordance with these Regulations, make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and, if those representations are rejected, appeal to an adjudicator;

(b)that if, before a notice to owner is served, representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified in the notice for the purpose those representations will be considered by the enforcement authority;

(c)that if a notice to owner is served despite the representations mentioned in sub-paragraph (b), representations against the penalty charge must be made to the enforcement authority in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

This notice does not contain sections B or C. Therefore, as this PCN is not compliant with the regulations under which it was issued, I request that it is cancelled.

NTO is attached below. Any thoughts / feedback etc would be warmly received.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/95glsyv9fb0yypgc0gied/Notice-To-Owner-redacted.pdf?rlkey=3tybs2h430sh8uq8izo6031y5&dl=0
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: cp8759 on March 31, 2024, 02:08:23 pm
I agree this is one of the worst PCNs I've seen, and one of the worst informal rejection I've seen.

While I'm at it I have requested the traffic order for this location, the last case like this that I dealt with turned out not to have a valid order at all (at least not one the council could prove existed).
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on March 22, 2024, 11:21:45 am
Thanks Incandescent. I agree with your reading of it, so lets see how we get on. I'll let you know when there is an update from council with the NTO. Thanks.
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: Incandescent on March 21, 2024, 06:27:45 pm
The councils will say all is perfection. The only place where this argument will get a consideration is at the adjudicators, and only if you make it one of your appeal points. In this case it would be under the statutory grounds of "procedural impropriety" in that they haven't followed the regulations for PCN content. In the regulation, the relevant clause used the word "must", not  "should", so the listed content must be on the PCN.
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on March 21, 2024, 02:54:05 pm
Just wait now for the notice to keeper then submit your formal reps (appeal) using the same argument (+ things wrong with NtK) - you will probably get a rejection again and then it will be on to adjudicator :) I've just got to the adjudication stage with my own ticket.

Post the Notice to Keeper when you get it

Note dates when you get any letters from the council regarding the PCN.

Thanks - is yours also similar ticket with York?

Yes I agree @Incandescent - I think that it is clear the PCN doesn't contain all the info that is necessary, but that will be tested by the NTO reps / adjudicator?

Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: kingsy on March 20, 2024, 06:51:37 pm
Just wait now for the notice to keeper then submit your formal reps (appeal) using the same argument (+ things wrong with NtK) - you will probably get a rejection again and then it will be on to adjudicator :) I've just got to the adjudication stage with my own ticket.

Post the Notice to Keeper when you get it

Note dates when you get any letters from the council regarding the PCN.
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on March 20, 2024, 05:37:02 pm
Hi, what do you think the chances of this winning either at formal appeal or adjudicator? I think that we have a strong case, if the PCN does not contain all the information which it is required to? Best,
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: Incandescent on March 19, 2024, 04:52:52 pm
What a load of tosh they've written. Clearly the bloke who wrote it is completely ignorant of the law. The regulations define content of PCNs. A council can't decide what to include and what not.  It is up to you whether to risk the full PCN penalty and wait for the Notice to Owner or just cough-up the discount, but I'd go for it if it were me.
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on March 19, 2024, 03:36:41 pm
Hello! The appeal was rejected - letter attached below.

Would it be worth resubmitting once the NtO is received on the same grounds?

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/5k4jv78e1huln2bsf9txu/Notice-of-Rejection-Redacted.pdf?rlkey=dffgx2xf2vejosx1hg1l6xtua&dl=0
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on March 11, 2024, 09:26:21 pm
Hi - just to let you know, submitted this representation so as not to miss the time window.
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on March 03, 2024, 10:17:58 am
Incandescent,

Thank you. I see the text which is missing namely section C. I appreciate your time and patience in guiding us.

I was planning to send the following in via an informal appeal.

Do you feel that this is sufficient, Incandescent?


Quote
I am writing to request that the following PCN be cancelled. It does not contain the the necessary information which is set out in The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.

Namely, Chapter 3, Section 1:

Information about right to make representations or appeal to be included in regulation 9 penalty charge notices and enforcement notices

3.—(1) A regulation 9 penalty charge notice must include the following information—

(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served may, in accordance with these Regulations, make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and, if those representations are rejected, appeal to an adjudicator;

(b)that if, before a notice to owner is served, representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified in the notice for the purpose those representations will be considered by the enforcement authority;

(c)that if a notice to owner is served despite the representations mentioned in sub-paragraph (b), representations against the penalty charge must be made to the enforcement authority in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.


This notice does not contain sections B or C.

Therefore, as this PCN is not compliant with the regulations, I request that it is cancelled.

Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: Incandescent on March 01, 2024, 10:44:32 pm
No, look at Chapter 1 Regulation 3 (1)
You have a Regulation 9 PCN. not an enforcement notice, (see the definitions in Part 1 Preliminary (2)
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on March 01, 2024, 08:16:52 pm
No apology required incandescent!

It appears that the notice posted on the car does not include the necessary information as dictated by the regulations.

-ie it does not state:

(ii)any such representations made outside the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the notice is served (“the payment period”) may be disregarded;

If you agree with this reading - would this be a suitable grounds for an appeal? Would you suggest any other avenues which your expert eyes may have spotted?
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: Incandescent on March 01, 2024, 07:01:46 pm
Oops, posted the wrong link  !! Please accept my grovelling apologies.

Here is the correct link: -
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2022/9780348232752/contents
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on March 01, 2024, 01:54:55 pm
Good afternoon Incandescent,

Having looked at the link - it appears that this is a link to the Equality Act 2010 - is this correct?

I looked at Chapter 1 of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2022/9780348232752/part/2/chapter/1

It appears that the notice does not include the necessary information -

-ie it does not state:

(ii)any such representations made outside the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the notice is served (“the payment period”) may be disregarded;

If so - would this be a suitable grounds for an appeal? Would you suggest any other avenues which your expert eyes may have spotted?

Best
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: Incandescent on March 01, 2024, 01:22:47 am
The PCN is not compliant with the regulations for the content of a Regulation 9 PCN, (one that is served at the roadside to car or driver).

Have a read of Chapter 1 in the regulations, (link below). Compare your PCN with the regulations mandate. It is clear that the PCN does not comply. In fact this is one of the worst examples I've seen yet. 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on February 29, 2024, 11:55:57 pm
Hi Incandescent,

Please see the following:

Front: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ba6cajmly62ogoj28ciz6/Parking-Ticket-Front.jpeg?rlkey=fm81obr0kxpkya5zzernb6s1s&dl=0

Back: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/pxvbj0srns6cm5693u53q/Parking-Ticket-Rear.jpeg?rlkey=r6v7io3an4horj0gish1tpo8b&dl=0

If you spot any fatal errors of content, that would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: Incandescent on February 29, 2024, 07:19:24 pm
There is a grace period for parking over the allowed time, but your relative was over that. The CEO will have recorded your car there at the first observation time, and then came back, and found the car still there past the 2 hours limit. Permit holders have no time limit.

Please post the back of the PCN so we can check it for fatal errors of content.
Title: York Main Street - Parked for Longer Than Permitted
Post by: twigtwig on February 29, 2024, 04:30:49 pm
Hello. A family member has received this parking ticket - Parked for Longer Than Permitted. It was issued here.

https://www.google.com/maps?ll=53.945268,-1.047748&z=18&t=m&hl=en-GB&gl=US&mapclient=apiv3

I have uploaded an image of the ticket that was issued to the dropbox link below. I was wondering if there are any grounds for appeal? Thank you.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/gudsystjhle7nmy1gvgva/h?rlkey=7jdsl6kp00qz1t5fdx7glo4er&dl=0

Thank you, in advance.