Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: syd16 on February 28, 2024, 08:06:59 pm
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Well there is a contractual requirement to pay by direct debit, so cancelling it is not an option as that would put you in breach.
That being the case the obvious first step is to raise a formal complaint. If they prove obtuse and insist on charging you the £65, your ultimate recourse is to take them to the county court (in the small claims track) to get the money back, the obvious argument being that they're in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 because their terms purport to deprive you of the right to take a case to the tribunal and such a term is unfair and thus invalid under the Act.
I'm happy to help every step of the way but you have to decide now if you're up for the fight, there's not much point in sending a couple of letters and giving up when they refuse to back down.
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Full terms of the contract here:
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I see references to clause 10, 11 and 12, so I'd expect to see terms 1 through 12?
Aside from your personal details (name, address, bank details etc) we need to see the whole thing please. It should be a standard document as all customers of the lease company will be issued with the same T&Cs, so there should be no issue in posting the whole thing on here.
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Here are the terms of the contract (minus any payment details):
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Can you post up the terms and conditions of the lease please?
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Yes it’s paid by direct debit.
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They've told me it would be added as an additional charge (£65 penalty + £15 administration) to my account which would come out of my usual lease payment next month.
Is the lease paid by direct debit?
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They've told me it would be added as an additional charge (£65 penalty + £15 administration) to my account which would come out of my usual lease payment next month.
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Have you paid the £65 to the lease company already?
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My thoughts exactly, I don't understand how I could have appealed it once they already paid the fine. It is a personal lease.
How do I proceed and what would be involved if I pursue it?
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It’s a lease car and the leasing company automatically paid the charge but said I can still appeal within the timeframe (which has now passed) but I didn’t get a response here in time so didn’t bother.
@syd16 it doesn't work like that, by paying the penalty the lease company has removed your right to appeal. The lease company may well say that you can still appeal, but that's because they're morons and have no idea how any of this works: once the penalty is paid the council can laugh all the way to the bank and any challenges go straight in the bin.
It's a pity as we can pretty much beat 99% of lease car cases.
If it's a personal lease you can force them to take the hit on this, as depriving you of the right to appeal by paying the penalty is a breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015. I'm happy to help you with that if you'd like to pursue it.
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It’s a lease car and the leasing company automatically paid the charge but said I can still appeal within the timeframe (which has now passed) but I didn’t get a response here in time so didn’t bother.
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Well we could have tried something with this but as you've paid it's too late.
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PCN: AF98214426
REG: YD22 FVH
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@syd16 we need the PCN number and number plate in order to give proper advice.
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Thanks for the replies.
Looks like a pretty good worked example in a training session for adjudicators of what de minimisin a box junction means ! The PCN is money-grubbing PCN we see far too often. However the council, venal and rapacious as ever, are unlikely to give way, so you'd have to take them to London Tribunals and risk the full PCN penalty. And as de minimis is subjective, (no definition of it, you just know it when you see it), you could well lose.
OK, I agree it's harsh and it's a cash cow for the council but just wanted to know if it's worth the risk of paying out the full penalty. Any previous experience of such de minimis cases and whether it's been won at Tribunal?
The whole PCN please.
Attached below.
You weren't committing an offence if there was enough room for you to move forward a few inches and clear the box. Due to the level of glare in the video it's very hard to confirm if you could or couldn't have done this. As well as de minimis I'd also challenge on this ground.
Sorry a bit unclear on this argument. Are you saying that if there was room in front me to move into but I am still stationary in the YBJ then does that mean I wouldn't be committing an offence?
For a de minimis challenge, what would I state as my reasons for challenging the PCN, is there a template I can use?
Thanks,
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You weren't committing an offence if there was enough room for you to move forward a few inches and clear the box. Due to the level of glare in the video it's very hard to confirm if you could or couldn't have done this. As well as de minimis I'd also challenge on this ground.
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The whole PCN please.
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Looks like a pretty good worked example in a training session for adjudicators of what de minimisin a box junction means ! The PCN is money-grubbing PCN we see far too often. However the council, venal and rapacious as ever, are unlikely to give way, so you'd have to take them to London Tribunals and risk the full PCN penalty. And as de minimis is subjective, (no definition of it, you just know it when you see it), you could well lose.
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Another PCN received from Redbridge council for entering and stopping in a Yellow Box Junction.
I was turning left into Horns Road and as the traffic moved I thought I had enough space to enter and exit the YBJ. Admittedly the rear right tyre is still in the box as I stopped behind traffic but most of my car is out and seems a bit harsh since I am not affecting the flow of traffic which is the purpose of the YBJ.
Any grounds for appeal?
Council video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcIjmFe4fiY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcIjmFe4fiY)
PCN:
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