Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: efunc on June 15, 2023, 12:34:11 am
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The reason is euphemistic bolleaux - and they know it. I am continuing this as the camera is not authorised. They should pay back people.
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Great that the PCN got cancelled, and kudos to Hippocrates.
But it seems as though the victory was down to procedural/"technicality" issues (which I'm not trying to trivialise - it's vital that authorities do things properly). But now that they've got the cameras certified so they can be used, if next time they don't mess up the procedural aspects, some poor schmuck of a driver is going to have a much harder time.
And yet as the OP observed, there is absolutely no way to access those parking spaces without driving in the bus lane, which seems utterly bonkers to me. Is this sort of thing common? I've seen loads of bus lanes (got done-but-not-done for using one once), but never one between a road and parking spaces. Are they mad?
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Well done to all !!
(should I include Mr Gayle in that ?)
He'll be hearing from me.
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Wow, that was quick! Took less than 5 hours to shut that down.
Absolute genius Hippocrates, what a result.
And thanks a heap for your help.
My absolute pleasure.
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I am going to continue the complaint in terms of all the other people ripped off at this location! May be we will be looking at an objection to their accounts at the end of the year? We will need just one local resident/elector.
Another euphemism for Schofeldt's Euhpemism Thread on pepipoo: Processing error=giant **** up.
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Wow, that was quick! Took less than 5 hours to shut that down.
Absolute genius Hippocrates, what a result.
And thanks a heap for your help.
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Well done to all !!
(should I include Mr Gayle in that ?)
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Thank you for your email. I have looked at the PCN and can confirm that it has been cancelled due to a processing error.
Curtis Gayle I Appeal & Monitoring Officer
Traffic, Transport & Parking, London Borough of Hounslow
Hounslow House, 7 Bath Road, Hounslow, TW3 3EB
See it. Say it. Sorted. 18.06 p.m.
The end of the beginning..............
https://hounslow.tarantoportal.com/
Link says: No Matches. No records could be found for this criteria. OK
I thought "criteria" is plural!
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Thanks but it has gone hours ago. Let them do the work and go through the case history. We do not want an OFR as this will prolong matters.
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Could I suggest an alternative?
If all we're looking to do is to speed along the council's actions, then IMO any communication should be restricted to this point and not veer into whether the contravention occurred or not.
Dear Sir,
PCN *******; VRM ********; Issue date *******
I refer to the above, your letter dated 8 June 2023 in which you stated that my formal representations were (oddly) rejected on 30 March 2023, your Enforcement Notice dated 5 May, your CC dated 26 June 2023 and today's date of ******.
A period of over 7 months has now elapsed since the CC was issued.
As owner, I am entitled to expect the council to expedite matters in a timely fashion and not to have to order my life so that I would be on hand to submit an in-time Statutory Declaration to the Traffic Enforcement Centre should the authority belatedly decide to issue an Order for Recovery.
Within the next 2 weeks you should either
Issue an OfR, or
Cancel the PCN.
Yours
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Dear Sirs
This matter has had a chequered history, to say the least. You issued a Penalty Charge Notice code 34j to the appellant when, at the time, you did not even possess a valid certificate from the VCA to satisfy the criterion of admissibility of evidence provided at para. 7(2) of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as amended). Furthermore, the camera at the location does not have a certificate either.
I note that you issued a Charge Certificate but have not followed this up with an Order for Recovery. The appellant made formal representations against the Enforcement Notice but received no proper NOR. Indeed, the correspondence I have seen pertaining to this case beggars belief.
In light of this clear and very substantial departure from the statutory scheme, I request that you cancel the said PCN and Charge Certificate forthwith. Please also register this with your complaints department.
I look forward to your reply.
Yours faithfully
007
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I am on the case. I will ask for immediate cancellation, otherwise we would be looking at an out of time Stat. Dec. and then back to the Tribunal - possibly. :o The B and D case still has not been looked at!
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The obvious way to progress this is via the formal complaints route. It sounds like Hippocrates might be willing to take this on so I'd suggest you take up his offer.
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Let's take this by the horns.
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We were also curious if the imminent transfer of Chiswick out of Hounslow and into the Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham may have something to do with it(?), but probably unlikely!
Very unlikely . . . as I understand it, Chiswick is merely being added to Hammersmith parliamentary constituency at the next General Election.
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Having again read this thread, I reckon that your family want this to be resolved asap. I suggest you authorise me now so that I can write to them regarding the clear and unacceptable blockage in the process and either they get on with it or cancel forthwith. For sure, it would be nice to get this to the Tribunal etc; but, I always take into consideration the OP's needs and circumstances. Just rest assured: there is no way you would lose this!
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Cheers.
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Thanks for the reply. We were also curious if the imminent transfer of Chiswick out of Hounslow and into the Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham may have something to do with it(?), but probably unlikely! Will respond to your PM, thanks
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They are probably dilly dallying because of the camera issue which they know they will lose.
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Returning to the topic because I check the status from time to time and note that it hasn't changed, which is still 'CC Sent'. The original PCN was issued on 08/03/23 so it coming up to almost a year. Is it usual to have such a long wait?
Yes, but what was the CC date ?
26.6.2023 (reply 9)
New VCA certificate effective from 13th March 2023 for a Yunex (Zenco) "Lanewatch" fixed cameras.
We have a Barking and Dagenham case which has been referred to the Tribunal: original PCN issued in November 2022! Let's get this done by the rules.
PM sent.
So it is 6 months since the period to pay the CC expired. Seems to me this is abuse of process.
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Returning to the topic because I check the status from time to time and note that it hasn't changed, which is still 'CC Sent'. The original PCN was issued on 08/03/23 so it coming up to almost a year. Is it usual to have such a long wait?
Yes, but what was the CC date ?
26.6.2023 (reply 9)
New VCA certificate effective from 13th March 2023 for a Yunex (Zenco) "Lanewatch" fixed cameras.
We have a Barking and Dagenham case which has been referred to the Tribunal: original PCN issued in November 2022! Let's get this done by the rules.
PM sent.
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Returning to the topic because I check the status from time to time and note that it hasn't changed, which is still 'CC Sent'. The original PCN was issued on 08/03/23 so it coming up to almost a year. Is it usual to have such a long wait?
Yes, but what was the CC date ?
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Returning to the topic because I check the status from time to time and note that it hasn't changed, which is still 'CC Sent'. The original PCN was issued on 08/03/23 so it coming up to almost a year. Is it usual to have such a long wait?
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It's very much ad-hoc, you just need to keep on checking once every 10 days or so.
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Thanks for the info about the process. Is it usual for it to take so long before the Order for Recovery? I just looked at the Hounslow website again and the penalty is still listed as £195. Just wondering if it's generally triggered after certain period, or just done ad hoc?
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You could call TEC to check directly with them if the debt is registered, contact details here: https://www.find-court-tribunal.service.gov.uk/courts/traffic-enforcement-centre-tec
You cannot file the statutory declaration with TEC until the debt has been registered, if you send them the form beforehand they'll just rejected as there's nothing on file.
Once the Order for Recovery is served you have 21 days, so a 1 week absence should not be a problem. Obviously sending the forms to TEC by email gives you the advantage that it gets there instantly.
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That's remarkable cp! Thanks for that information. One wonders why they procured and installed non-compliant hardware if it places them at such an obvious disadvantage.
I've been watching the hounslow portal and it still shows no change in the penalty amount. Is it actually necessary to wait until we see this/or receive notification of the statutory declaration or Order for Recovery before we submit the PE3. Or could we get the form notorised and submitted before that? My partner, the keeper/driver, is away for a week so I just want to check how much time we'll be allowed to submit the form should anything updated this week for example while she's away.
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I have just found out that there is no approval from the Secretary of State for the camera at this location, so we can win a substantive appeal on that point:
(https://i.imgur.com/4Yi00lA.png)
The only approval certificates (https://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/tma-part-6-list-of-approved-devices/approved-device-certifications-hounslow.zip) issued under the 1996 Act are for "Yunex (Zenco) “LaneWatch” fixed cameras" and "Yunex (Zenco) Zengrab and fixed cameras", neither of which seem to be in use here.
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You should receive an Order for Recovery in the post, but you can't really rely on that as there's always a chance it might go missing, and if it does and you don't know it's been sent you could miss the deadline, and then you're really screwed.
The one way to be 100% sure that the debt is or isn't registered with TEC is to call them up and check, contact details are here: https://www.find-court-tribunal.service.gov.uk/courts/traffic-enforcement-centre-tec
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Thank you for information about the process. I've been checking the hounslow website and the penalty is still showing as £195. Should we wait until it changes before filling in the PE3 and having the form notorised? Will we receive any notification of the Statutory Declaration before this?
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Keep an eye out on the amount due on the council website, once it goes up to £204 you know they've registered the debt and can file a statutory declaration with the Traffic Enforcement Centre.
All you'll need to do is download and print form PE3 from https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pe3-challenge-an-unpaid-penalty-charge-notice and fill it in (but don't sign it!), the relevant box is "I made representations about the penalty charge to the local authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner/Enforcement Notice/Penalty Charge Notice, but did not receive a rejection notice".
The "reasons" box must be left blank, and note that the "Applicant" in the box in the top-left corner is the London Borough of Hounslow, not you.
You will then have to make an appointment at the local county court to sign it in front of a court officer (it's free), you can then scan and email it to tec@justice.gov.uk with the PCN number in the subject line.
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Hounslow have just issued a Charge Certificate, that I am posting below. It seems to me that neither points 1, 2, 3 or 4 are correct, which makes me wonder what it is that I'm missing! The Penalty is now £195 :o
(https://i.ibb.co/CmRd5ry/IMG-20230628-0001.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/yBftRk0/IMG-20230628-0002.jpg)
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efunc
What is the status of your PCN on Hounslow's website?
Most Council's allow you to see a timeline.
Answered my own question: still at £65 - see
https://hounslow.tarantoportal.com/
You need to keep on eye on this for any changes in amount or status.
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Just wait for the Charge Certificate, post it on here and do nothing. Then they will send you the Order for Recovery. Post that again on here and we will advise.
Do not worry about court and car being taken.
Having dealt with exactly the same situation v Waltham Forest a year ago, I would strongly recommend writing to them now to request a copy of the Notice of Rejection and a complete case log history of all communications.
Should (when) the Charge Certificate be (is) cancelled and the OFR revoked, you would need the verification code to apply to the tribunal for costs if they do not play by the rules. The other council got themselves into a right fandango over their alleged Notice of Rejection I can tell you.
This council are fully aware that their camera certificate does not satisfy the criterion of admissibility provided at para 7(2) of Schedule 1 of the LLA Act 1996.
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I see, thank you all. Understood, so this is a penultimate stage. After the Order for Recovery they would still need to go back to the court and obtain a Warrant of Execution. Sounds simple enough, we will hold tight!
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https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/schedule/1/enacted
10 (7)
7)Where a declaration has been served under sub-paragraph (2) (b) or (c) above, the borough council shall refer the case to the traffic adjudicator who may give such direction as he considers appropriate.
As alluded by cp above.
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Process here
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/bus-lane-pcn-enforcement-process
Scroll down to 'Charge Certificate' et seq.
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PM sent. TEC will deal with it. As cp advised, do not worry. It would be nice, though, to get this to the Tribunal!
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Thanks for that cp. I hadn't realised that the letter we received was not actually a Notice of Rejection. The process seems a little terrifying since we've never taken things as far as being issued an Order for Recovery!
Who does one then make a statutory declaration to? Is it the council again, or whoever they've appointed to recover the vehicle? Thanks for the info, much appreciated.
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I would suggest we do this by the book: you have made representations and you have not received either a Notice of Acceptance or a Notice of Rejection. This being the case, the next step is to wait for the Charge Certificate and then the Order for Recovery, you can then make a statutory declaration on the ground that you made formal representations against the Enforcement Notice but did not receive a Notice of Rejection.
Once the council receives the revoking order from TEC, in theory they could refer it to the tribunal but I think it's more likely that at that stage they'll realise their ****-up and cancel. If they do refer it to the tribunal, you'd have a good chance of getting costs.
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Hi Folks,
here are some of the contents of the thread I originally posted on pepipoo on 20/03/23:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149091&st=20&gopid=1778019
Hello, I would welcome some advice on this please. London Borough of Hounslow have issued us a PCN for the contravention of "Being in a Bus Lane".
The bus lane in question is on Chiswick High Road, a short bus lane along which are situated 3 Parking and Loading bays. You cannot park in these bays without crossing said Bus Lane. Our vehicle is photographed having tried to park in the first bay and then spotting a more suitable space in the adjoining bay and so maneuvering to the next spot. Loading is permitted "Mon-Sat, 7am - 7pm, 20 mins, No return within 1 hour". I realise that this is not a parking fine, however we parked for 10 mins to enter the shop opposite the bay to return an item, and have the receipt for the transaction, dated and timestamped.
Are there any grounds to contest this based on the fact that we were simply trying to access the loading bay not drive along a bus lane? We had absolutely no other reason to be in the bus lane as it can clearly be seen that the high road we were actually driving along was completely clear anyway!
longitude: -0.26811 latitude: 51.49296
(https://i.ibb.co/5sFghYp/pcn3.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/SQJNrx1/pcn2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/bv5yDMW/chiswick-h-rd-1.png)
Schofeldt
Fri, 31 Mar 2023 - 13:16
Post #21
Just wait for the Enforcement Notice. If they wish to go to the 5th set, that is their problem. As ever, if I represent anyone re a London Bus lane PCN and lose at the Tribunal, I will pay £65 towards it. What a liberty!
efunc
post Fri, 31 Mar 2023 - 22:53
Post #22
I see, so you advise making a formal representation using the Enforcement Notice form? Would I just resubmit the original representation already sent to them? Presumably this is also decided by the council, and would then have to be appealed.
Schofeldt
post Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 01:28
Post #23
Depends how you want to play it. I would send something stronger next time and to the point.
efunc
post Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 03:16
Post #24
Understood, I'll see what I can do. It was my partner driving, I was just the passenger. Like most people she is strongly deterred following the first setback would prefer to settle up right now, but I'll try to convince her to persevere.
Schofeldt
post Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 07:58
Post #25
Trust us! If she settles now, she will join The Mugged Club. This is their game. If she continues and fights, the VCA certificate will be found to be invalid.
This should convince her: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t=#entry1768834
Question: why do you think they have applied for new certificates?
Answer: so that the new certificates satisfy the criterion of admissibility of evidence at the Tribunal.
We have just successfully got a Greenwich PCN cancelled before the Tribunal stage.
cp8759
post Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 15:22
Post #26
QUOTE (efunc @ Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 03:16) *
Understood, I'll see what I can do. It was my partner driving, I was just the passenger. Like most people she is strongly deterred following the first setback would prefer to settle up right now, but I'll try to convince her to persevere.
This is what councils count on. Take the key decision in Davy Duthieuw v London Borough of Ealing listed here: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/key-cases
I found out during the proceedings that Ealing council had issued 13 PCNs on the day, and only Mr Duthieuw appealed, everyone else paid. So basically as the PCNs were all invalid, the first 12 people got mugged. Ask your partner if she wants to join the mugged club, or the savvy Davy club.
Schofeldt
post Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 15:27
Post #27
I have been thinking a lot about this appalling attitude. Is it ignorance? Or is it wilful maladministration? All I do know is that we have had 100% success as it concerns a fundamental point of law. I reckon between cp and me we have scored over 50 successes so far. His ca. double mine. And there are more in the pipeline.
efunc
post Sun, 7 May 2023 - 00:10
Post #28
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 14:22) *
I found out during the proceedings that Ealing council had issued 13 PCNs on the day, and only Mr Duthieuw appealed, everyone else paid. So basically as the PCNs were all invalid, the first 12 people got mugged. Ask your partner if she wants to join the mugged club, or the savvy Davy club.
After much discussion, and convincing of my partner, I can confirm that we wish to sign up to the savvy davy club. The following document just arrived on our doormat:
(https://i.ibb.co/n7hqznx/pcna.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/f2vXdY4/pcnb.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/897dDLx/pcnc.jpg)
So, presumably this representation would aim to be a bit more persuasive?
cp8759
post Mon, 8 May 2023 - 21:36
Post #29
Just make the same representation again and let us know when you get the Notice of Rejection. One of us will then sort out the tribunal appeal for you.
efunc
post Tue, 9 May 2023 - 22:51
Post #30
Thank you, we will do that and report back.
efunc
post Thu, 8 Jun 2023 - 14:19
Post #31
So Hounslow have finally responded:
(https://i.ibb.co/LrnPtQg/01097854.jpg)
John U.K.
post Thu, 8 Jun 2023 - 15:10
Post #32
Am I alone in wondering what Mr Squiggle, the Appeals and Monitoring Officer, is on???
Has he read his department's letter of the 30th.March (post#20)?
Schofeldt
post Today, 08:06
Post #34
efunc: It is tribunal time and I am happy to represent you if you so wish. There is also a wording issue with the Enforcement Notice and, of course, they do not have a VCA certificate which satisfies the criterions of admissibility of evidence provided at para. 7 (2) of Schedule 1 of the LLA Act 1996 (as amended). This kind of intransigent approach from councils is converting into costs, most recently against Brent and Harrow. 2230136090 achieved costs and is similar in that they used a VCA certificate which did not apply.