Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Londoner on February 25, 2024, 08:24:54 pm
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@Londoner I see you've paid the discount, if you're in this situation again please tag me as I can normally come up with something. Unfortunately I've been completely swamped with tribunals hearings over the past few weeks.
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OP, you need to back-track your route to check for CPZ entry signs. I seem to have finally managed to find a map of the Golders Green CPZ. The black line is the boundary, so there should be CPZ signs where roads cross the boundary.
www.barnet.gov.uk/sites/default/files/assets/citizenportal/documents/parkingroadsandpavements/Parking/GoldersGreenCPZ.pdf
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I've set out the legal test.
You were parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - fact.
There is no law to which you could refer which would require an adjudicator to find in your favour.
If the balance of relevant tribunal decisions is in the authority's favour then I could not see them accepting any reps from you based on the inadequacy of signs. Which would mean adjudication if you want to pay nothing. Your risk would be having to pay the full penalty.
Extracts from a couple of 'appeal refused' decisions:
There was no legal requirement for additional signage at the junction of Hodford Road.
The waiting restriction that applies within a CPZ is signed at the entry points to the zone. The motorist is expected to note the restriction that applies on driving past such signage. There is no duty on the council to post repeater signs within a CPZ. That is why the appellant did not see any such signs. This council enforces yellow line restrictions on Sundays. It is not a defence to this penalty charge that the appellant believed otherwise. I acknowledge the photographic evidence of signage provided by the appellant but I am satisfied that this CPZ was clearly and correctly singed and that the restriction conveyed by signage was in force at the relevant time.
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Your circumstances are not the same. You did not see another CPZ sign and we don't know which route you took.
I didn't see CPZ signs at all, despite checking 2 different entrances to Hodford Road. Shouldn't that strengthen my case if anything? I appreciate one could argue I should've figured out I was in CPZ zone from the nearby paid parking bays, but the signs at the paid parking bays don't always necessarily reflect the same restriction times as the SYL's, or do they?
I alluded to the route I took in reply #2. I would think this point also strengthens my case, since compared to the "winning" case above the CPZ sign I drove past was about 0.5 miles from my parking location.
Having said that, I don't doubt your expertise. I'm just torn at the moment on whether to fight this all the way or just pay the discount. It really is hard parting with £65 for a genuine mistake.
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One adjudicator's decision is not binding on another.
Of the three cases cited one, the third, was decided in the appellant's favour because the authority's evidence was unreadable. In the other two, the phrase 'in the circumstances of the case' or equivalent leaps out.
Your circumstances are not the same. You did not see another CPZ sign and we don't know which route you took.
Therefore, under the particular circumstances of this case, I am not satisfied that a contravention took place and this Appeal is allowed.
In those circumstances, whilst a contravention occurred, I take the view that the signage was not fit for purpose and so I allow the appeal.
Much of the council's map evidence at 'H' is blurred and unintelligible and on none of it can I identify zone entry points. It may well be that Hodford Road junction with Golders Green Road is not in fact a CPZ entry point but I cannot be satisfied on the council's case that it has established that its CPZ is clearly and correctly signed at its entry points and I accordingly find that the contravention has not been proved.
The council's duty in law is to place and maintain '..on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;'
Because appellants are in the main the equivalent of litigants in person and not legally trained, the tribunal extends to them what would otherwise be denied to a qualified lawyer i.e. they tolerate references only to cases which support their appeal and which ignore perhaps a body of contrary decisions.
Here's Hodford on the ETA register for the last few years. I suggest you look through these decisions and where the circumstances are the same create two columns of appeals allowed and refused. Then decide whether you would want to risk the discount by taking your case all the way.
https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:60:10303268843615:pg_R_12214301622549612:NO&pg_min_row=16&pg_max_rows=15&pg_rows_fetched=15
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Two of these cases are about the appellant relying on a sign near the location of parking, that was closer than the CPZ sign. Your last one is about missing signage. There is no guarantee that you'd win citing some or all of these cases. Your case seems to be that you passed the CPZ entry sign some way back, probably missing it in traffic, and then passed no other signs before parking. Therefore your case would be based on the size of the CPZ being totally against council guidance on CPZs.
Of course, you have the absolute right in law to take them to London Tribunals, but must first go through the process of getting formal reps against a Notice to Owner refused. Are you the owner as per the V5 Registration Certificate for the car.
Yes, I am named on the V5.
I should point out that in the Authority’s Case Summary they seek to rely on the fact that there was signage at the entrance to the other end of Hodford Road that indicated a restriction: Monday to Saturday - 08:00 to 18:30 and on Sunday - 09:30 to 18:30. At no time did the Appellants see this signage because she entered Hodford Road from the other end, and she exited the road from that end as well. Accordingly, the signage to which the Authority refer in the Case Summary is of no relevance. The Authority have not addressed the absence of signage at the Golders Green Road end of Hodford Road in their Case Summary. However, as indicated above, they have provided photographs of the relevant signage in the area and a plan on which the signage has been marked. I note that there is signage on Finchley Road [‘the Finchley Road signage’] shortly before the junction with Golders Green Road indicating a restriction: Monday to Saturday - 08:00 to 18:30 and on Sunday - 09:30 to 18:30. The question is whether it would have been reasonable for the Appellant to have interpreted that signage as indicating a restriction some distance away on Hodford Road.
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I take the view that the signage pertaining to Hodford Road is unclear and ambiguous and that this should have been remedied by placing signage at the Golders Green Road entrance to Hodford Road indicating that there was a restriction: Monday to Saturday - 08:00 to 18:30 and on Sunday - 09:30 to 18:30. In those circumstances, whilst a contravention occurred, I take the view that the signage was not fit for purpose and so I allow the appeal.
How is this not a strong argument? Why is my case any different?
Also, the adjudicator clearly stated this flaw should be remedied by the council placing a CPZ sign at the (Golders Green Rd) entrance to Hodford Rd - which the council still haven't done.
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Had a quick look through the Traffic Signs Manual and saw this:-
14.1.13. It is not essential for a type (a) CPZ to be introduced where parking controls are
required. Each road can be signed in accordance with section 13 without the need to provide
zone entry signs. The advantages of a zone might be:
a) a simplified traffic order.
b) some reduction in environmental intrusion by removal of upright “no waiting” signs and posts
within the zone, but at the expense of providing large zone entry signs.
c) an indication to drivers that all road space is controlled.
d) an indication to drivers of the type of parking available (e.g. pay and display).
However, there are also significant disadvantages. Research has shown that it is unrealistic
to expect drivers to remember the times of operation of the zone when they come to park a
considerable distance after passing a zone entry sign. The area of the zone should therefore
be restricted to, for example, a town centre shopping area. A zone covering a whole town,
or suburb of a conurbation, would be much too large. Drivers are likely also to have difficulty
where zones have complex operational times, e.g. different times on different days of the
week, or where they are adjacent to other zones that have different operational times. In all the
above cases, consideration should be given to replacing the zone with conventional signing as
described in section 13, dividing the zone into several smaller ones or reducing the size of the
zone and signing other roads individually
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Two of these cases are about the appellant relying on a sign near the location of parking, that was closer than the CPZ sign. Your last one is about missing signage. There is no guarantee that you'd win citing some or all of these cases. Your case seems to be that you passed the CPZ entry sign some way back, probably missing it in traffic, and then passed no other signs before parking. Therefore your case would be based on the size of the CPZ being totally against council guidance on CPZs.
Of course, you have the absolute right in law to take them to London Tribunals, but must first go through the process of getting formal reps against a Notice to Owner refused. Are you the owner as per the V5 Registration Certificate for the car.
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Your link doesn't work, but if it's a London Tribunals case, just give us the Case Number.
I've found several more:
2190189644
2210834196
2210010770
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Your link doesn't work, but if it's a London Tribunals case, just give us the Case Number.
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Doesn't the below similar case indicate I have a decent chance of winning if I were to take this all the way to tribunal?
http://tinyurl.com/3cmuve78
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I think, to condense HCA's post, (I'm sure he won't mind !), the principal of "if it looks too good to be true then it is too good to be true" applies to parking as well as offers of lucrative financial investments .
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The size of the CPZ wouldn't win short of adjudication and IMO very, very, unlikely even then.
I'm not aware of any current guidance on this matter, the Secretary of State's Operational Guidance having been withdrawn in Oct '22 and the consolidated Stat Guidance doesn't refer.
As far as I can see, only the TSM refers: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf
14.1.13.
But IMO, OP do not risk the discount on this point.
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The size of the restricted area is larger than guidance.
Is this grounds for appeal? Would you mind to point me to where I can find this guidance?
Seeing as there were no signs in sight indicating restrictions on the yellow line, I assumed I was good to go.
The photo shows a parking place no more than 10m ahead of you. This is restricted on a Sunday at 14.59. Did you honestly think that drivers would have to pay in these at 14.59 on Sunday while parking was free and unrestricted on an adjacent yellow line?
Anyway, what's done is done.
Do you have any mitigating circumstances e.g. first visit, unknown area, unblemished PCN record etc?
I think in the back of my mind I did know that if there are paid parking bays nearby then the same time restrictions apply on the SYL's, but having to keep all the different types of parking restrictions in mind, I was under the false impression at the time that if there are no CPZ signs at the entry to the road then I'm good to go, hence why I checked 2 different entrances before leaving my car unattended.
Unfortunately I do not have a clean PCN slate with Barnet, although I have never parked on this road before and certainly not at this time of day. I'd imagine Barnet couldn't care less though.
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Seeing as there were no signs in sight indicating restrictions on the yellow line, I assumed I was good to go.
The photo shows a parking place no more than 10m ahead of you. This is restricted on a Sunday at 14.59. Did you honestly think that drivers would have to pay in these at 14.59 on Sunday while parking was free and unrestricted on an adjacent yellow line?
Anyway, what's done is done.
Do you have any mitigating circumstances e.g. first visit, unknown area, unblemished PCN record etc?
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Wait a bit to see if the others come up with anything. You have the absolute right in law to submit representations, and then, if rejected, take them to London Tribunals. The downside is you would have to risk the full PCN penalty. The size of the restricted area is larger than guidance.
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Am I really expected to be looking out for / memorising every parking sign I drive past 5 minutes before reaching my intended destination?
I'm afraid so !
In London and other large cities, if you park on a single-yellow line and find no signs with the restriction times, it is almost certain that you are in a CPZ, and have missed or ignored the entry signs. All London councils now flood the streets with CEO patrols 24x7 because it is so lucrative for them. £65 a pop soon adds up to hundreds of thousands of pounds.
Yet the roads are still littered with potholes!
So you suggest I just pay the discount and move on? Is there really zero grounds for successful appeal?
Curious to hear what others think.
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Am I really expected to be looking out for / memorising every parking sign I drive past 5 minutes before reaching my intended destination?
I'm afraid so !
In London and other large cities, if you park on a single-yellow line and find no signs with the restriction times, it is almost certain that you are in a CPZ, and have missed or ignored the entry signs. All London councils now flood the streets with CEO patrols 24x7 because it is so lucrative for them. £65 a pop soon adds up to hundreds of thousands of pounds.
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It's a real struggle trying to see if the location is in a CPZ, which would explain the lack of signs by the yellow line. However, I have found one of the entry signs, and it's here as you come along the A502 into Golders Green.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/1WEp61YQfmMCRhf68
Here is the map
www.barnet.gov.uk/sites/default/files/assets/citizenportal/documents/parkingroadsandpavements/Parking/GoldersGreenCPZ.pdf
So you look to be bang-to-rights, but post the back of the PCN, so we can check the small print for fatal errors
Thanks for your reply. The back of the PCN is the standard pre-printed Barnet PCN so I doubt there'll be any errors in that, but have posted below anyway, in addition to CEO pics.
As for the signage you've linked to GSV, that's fair enough, however I did not enter from that direction. Having retraced my steps (or drive rather) the only entry sign I passed was here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/qVq99y42s7GwgxZo6
Am I really expected to be looking out for / memorising every parking sign I drive past 5 minutes before reaching my intended destination? :(
(https://i.ibb.co/3W3QXbh/PXL-20240227-000353736.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7VfLcDy)
(https://i.ibb.co/GRfPz3G/Screenshot-20240227-000930-2.png) (https://ibb.co/fHV0jGZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/R4hnknv/Screenshot-20240227-001144-2.png) (https://ibb.co/DgGXHXV)
(https://i.ibb.co/dtw4mtF/Screenshot-20240227-001100-2.png) (https://ibb.co/gdLZ4dN)
(https://i.ibb.co/smsyw41/Screenshot-20240227-001043-2.png) (https://ibb.co/3rSBNbF)
(https://i.ibb.co/PGZ1CxM/Screenshot-20240227-000955-2.png) (https://ibb.co/fdYr0M9)
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It's a real struggle trying to see if the location is in a CPZ, which would explain the lack of signs by the yellow line. However, I have found one of the entry signs, and it's here as you come along the A502 into Golders Green.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/1WEp61YQfmMCRhf68
Here is the map
www.barnet.gov.uk/sites/default/files/assets/citizenportal/documents/parkingroadsandpavements/Parking/GoldersGreenCPZ.pdf
So you look to be bang-to-rights, but post the back of the PCN, so we can check the small print for fatal errors
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I parked on a single yellow line earlier today. Seeing as there were no signs in sight indicating restrictions on the yellow line, I assumed I was good to go. I even double and triple checked 2 separate entrances to the road I parked on for CPZ signs but there were none.
Is there any way out of this one?
GSV of parking location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/DGztUbHm9w7AmP2C6
(https://i.ibb.co/gVgqdbw/PXL-20240225-160555459.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fv069Vt)