Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: davidmcn on July 02, 2023, 10:06:26 pm

Title: Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
Post by: cp8759 on August 06, 2023, 11:02:12 pm
Successful though grudging result:

"The parking tickets were issued because the vehicle was not parked correctly within the bay. The legislation requires that, when a vehicle is parked in a parking bay, every part of that vehicle must be contained within the bay markings. The Parking Attendant has recorded that the vehicle was not wholly contained within the parking bay.

The residents parking permit only authorises you to park your vehicle in any vacant permit, shared use or public parking place within your zone during permitted hours. Unless the vehicle is fully within the appropriate bay it has no legal status, and the residents permit contains no guarantee that the holder will be able to park in or near the street in which the holder resides. The responsibility is with the driver to check the bay markings before leaving the vehicle parked. The very existence of bay markings makes parking within them self evident.

We will cancel the parking tickets as a courtesy on this occasion. Any future tickets issued under the same circumstances will not be cancelled as the regulations have now been confirmed to you."

I'd be tempted to write back:

Dear Edinburgh Council,

You state in your cancellation letter that "The legislation requires that, when a vehicle is parked in a parking bay, every part of that vehicle must be contained within the bay markings", I am not aware of any such legislation. Please could you provide me a copy, or give me the link on legislation.gov.uk where this legislation can be found, so that I may educate myself?

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
Post by: Incandescent on August 06, 2023, 09:32:22 pm
Except that the regulations don't exist !  It reads like a typical Edinburgh answer !  "you'll have had your tea, of course"
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/309690/youll-have-had-your-tea
Title: Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
Post by: davidmcn on August 06, 2023, 09:07:32 pm
Successful though grudging result:

"The parking tickets were issued because the vehicle was not parked correctly within the bay. The legislation requires that, when a vehicle is parked in a parking bay, every part of that vehicle must be contained within the bay markings. The Parking Attendant has recorded that the vehicle was not wholly contained within the parking bay.

The residents parking permit only authorises you to park your vehicle in any vacant permit, shared use or public parking place within your zone during permitted hours. Unless the vehicle is fully within the appropriate bay it has no legal status, and the residents permit contains no guarantee that the holder will be able to park in or near the street in which the holder resides. The responsibility is with the driver to check the bay markings before leaving the vehicle parked. The very existence of bay markings makes parking within them self evident.

We will cancel the parking tickets as a courtesy on this occasion. Any future tickets issued under the same circumstances will not be cancelled as the regulations have now been confirmed to you."
Title: Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
Post by: cp8759 on August 02, 2023, 12:53:04 am
Will look at these if a rejection comes back:

The City of Edinburgh Council (Traffic Regulation; Restrictions on Waiting, Loading and Unloading, Stopping and Parking Places) Designation and Traffic Regulation Order 2018 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/16vQ7Thvx3nyPxKb6QOWBMw5HMoXU5pFr/view?usp=sharing)

Confirmed Map Tiles - Leamington Terrace 18.07.23 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UdOEatv-0iWn1mvwIGynuc3NBokm9JOt/view?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
Post by: davidmcn on July 11, 2023, 11:02:43 pm
Draft reps:

Dear City of Edinburgh Council,

I dispute liability because the alleged contravention did not occur. The highways authority is required to convey the effects of the traffic order to the attention of motorists, but nothing on the traffic signs conveys the requirement to park within the bay markings, and the permit's terms and conditions published at www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/26050/residents-parking-permit-terms-and-conditions do not mention any such requirement.

It follows that the alleged contravention did not occur and the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Send them online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation screem.
Thanks, have submitted and will update when I have responses.
Title: Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
Post by: cp8759 on July 10, 2023, 09:36:34 pm
Draft reps:

Dear City of Edinburgh Council,

I dispute liability because the alleged contravention did not occur. The highways authority is required to convey the effects of the traffic order to the attention of motorists, but nothing on the traffic signs conveys the requirement to park within the bay markings, and the permit's terms and conditions published at www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/26050/residents-parking-permit-terms-and-conditions do not mention any such requirement.

It follows that the alleged contravention did not occur and the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Send them online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation screem.
Title: Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
Post by: davidmcn on July 08, 2023, 08:54:59 pm
Generic information on the council website isn't worth diddly squat, the actual terms and conditions are here: https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/26050/residents-parking-permit-terms-and-conditions

I can't see any reference in that document to the manner of parking, and the document says "By applying for a permit, the applicant agrees to be bound by the following terms and conditions".

It is implicit that by granting a permit, the council also agrees to be bound by those terms and conditions, so they can't come up with additional terms later on if they realise they forgot to include something.

I've saved a copy of that PDF here (https://bit.ly/44vK64W), just in case they get any ideas.

Give others a few days to commnet, if nobody adds anything by the weekend bump the thread and I'll write a draft for you.
Hi, would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
Title: Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
Post by: cp8759 on July 03, 2023, 11:47:51 pm
Generic information on the council website isn't worth diddly squat, the actual terms and conditions are here: https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/26050/residents-parking-permit-terms-and-conditions

I can't see any reference in that document to the manner of parking, and the document says "By applying for a permit, the applicant agrees to be bound by the following terms and conditions".

It is implicit that by granting a permit, the council also agrees to be bound by those terms and conditions, so they can't come up with additional terms later on if they realise they forgot to include something.

I've saved a copy of that PDF here (https://bit.ly/44vK64W), just in case they get any ideas.

Give others a few days to commnet, if nobody adds anything by the weekend bump the thread and I'll write a draft for you.
Title: Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
Post by: davidmcn on July 03, 2023, 11:06:49 pm
So starting with the basics, do the terms and conditions of your permit say anything about parking wholly within a marked bay?
Hmm. "Park your vehicle fully within a permit holders or shared use parking place within your zone" (from here (https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/parking-permits/residents%E2%80%99-permit-information-guidance?documentId=12686&categoryId=20277)) which doesn't help my case much.
Title: Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
Post by: cp8759 on July 02, 2023, 11:27:01 pm
The traffic order is The City of Edinburgh Council (Traffic Regulation; Restrictions on Waiting, Loading and Unloading, Stopping and Parking Places) Designation and Traffic Regulation Order 2018 (https://bit.ly/44npImC), but the map tiles have to be requested separately so I have now done this.

The argument is untested in Scotland, but a case can be made that the requirement to park within the bay markings must be conveyed to motorists, see these cases:

Cooper v London Borough of Richmond Upon Thames (1990292199, 18 July 2000) (http://bit.ly/3ZXRgh0)
Ernesto Villa Blandino v London Borough of Barnet (2110474195, 28 November 2011) (http://bit.ly/3WCbvxL)
Michal Budai v London Borough of Barnet (2120008348, 06 February 2012) (http://bit.ly/3iZgaMB)
Caroline Ratner v London Borough of Barnet (2140338414, 10 September 2014) (http://bit.ly/3JaxaKG)
Cheryl Kuczynski v London Borough of Barnet (2160033974, 30 April 2016) (http://bit.ly/3J3WCkW)
Sultan Gangji v London Borough of Barnet (2160439695, 15 November 2016) (http://bit.ly/3XyBQy4)
Tecwyn Evans v London Borough of Merton (2160499981, 05 January 2017) (http://bit.ly/3wlTfOL)
Gerald Halibard v London Borough of Barnet (2170225166, 15 June 2017) (http://bit.ly/3Hmjg5J)
Lamin Sesay v London Borough of Southwark (2180188510, 22 June 2018) (http://bit.ly/3kAFUj0)
Anthony Westmore v London Borough of Barnet (2180064744, 15 March 2018) (http://bit.ly/3nwzArv)
Keren Lewin v London Borough of Haringey (2190290943, 28 August 2019) (http://bit.ly/3XI0n3A)


So starting with the basics, do the terms and conditions of your permit say anything about parking wholly within a marked bay?
Title: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
Post by: davidmcn on July 02, 2023, 10:06:26 pm
[reposted from Pepipoo as suggested]

Parked straddling two bays, one being mixed residents permit / pay and display (as are most in the area) and the other being resident permit only. Car has a valid residents permit so could legitimately park within either. Bays are both multi-vehicle and not delineated into car lengths, so no argument that I've put a parking space out of use for others (I merely made efficient use of what was a car-sized gap when I parked!).

I have in the past been successful with an appeal on that basis (though only as "we'll let you off this time" rather than any acknowledgement that I had a valid legal point).

Only other potential relevant point is that they have been a bit haphazard about removing old markings/signs in the area since the latest TRO changes (so I frequently park in e.g. a legitimate space which is still partly marked as a loading bay), so I suspect I assumed the delineation between the bays was no longer a relevant one and it was all a mixed-use stretch, but it looks like the markings and signs do in fact correctly correspond to the current TRO.

Left there for a couple of days so I have two identical tickets to deal with (is there potential for appeal on that point? The restrictions apply 0830-1730 Mon-Fri (CPZ hours not repeated on the pavement signs) so potentially not a "continuous" infraction.).

I'll appeal anyway, but does the panel have any helpful tips or precedents?

https://goo.gl/maps/UepydLzSKHhKEYoF6[attach=1][attach=2][attach=3]

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