Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: asmith93 on February 17, 2024, 02:27:16 pm
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Hello,
Ah yes you are right the website is here:
http://winterthurway.co.uk/
Their section on parking which does not give me any more information tbh. http://winterthurway.co.uk/estate/parking/.
They have budgets and accounts (last one available seems to be 2021) but does show expenditure on surface parking, however does not show specifics on what that was spent on. I have also had a glance at their board meetings and there is nothing specific on parking arrangements.
It seems that for any day to day matters they just refer to their managing agents which are Chaneys.
Under the contact section they have an email to contact the VHMC Board of Directors.
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On-site support
To contact the VHMC Board of Directors regarding any of the below you can email by clicking the link below. Please mark the email for the attention of the VHMC Directors
help@winterthurway.co.uk
Queries relating to the governance, structure or management of VHMC
Requests for additional information regarding the on-going performance of VHMC
Complaints or praise regarding the performance of either the board or estates team
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I assume my next point of call is to contact the email above.
I have looked the the rules and regulations on the VHMC website and states this under parking:
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4. Parking
Parking is in allocated spaces in different areas. The first is the multi-story car park (“MSCP”)
off Winterthur Way. This parking is shared with Winterthur Life UK Ltd and access is through
a fob operated shutter (see below). Secondly, there are under-croft parking spaces beneath
Blocks Cherry, Holly and Elm and again accessed through automated gates. Finally, there are
individual spaces marked out in the parking areas as well as individual garages. It is important
that all residents park only in the space allocated to their apartment and not in their
neighbour’s space. In addition to the allocated spaces, there are a number of visitors’ parking
spaces (seebelow).
Resident Parking
a) Vehicles shall only be parked within marked parking bays. Those not parked inside a
marked bay (i.e. within the bay markings) will be deemed improperly parked.
b) Under the Lease of your apartment, you may be allocated a numbered parking bay for
one vehicle. If you are unsure which is your allocated parking bay, please contact the
MA or Estate office.
c) It is not permitted to park any trade vehicles, lorries, boats, caravans, motorised
homes or temporary structure in the parking space or anywhere within the
development.
d) Victory Hill operates a parking permit and management scheme operated and
managed by an independent third party. Any parking disputes should only be directed
to the nominated parking management company and not the MA. Visitor Parking
a) There are 16 visitors’ spaces in the development. These are marked by the letter ‘V’.
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I have also found snippets in the meeting minutes from 2021 & 2022 that do mention regarding parking as snippets below, in particular wavering parking penalties during this construction period but looks like there is no outcome I can see. For a while it seems that my current spot is a temporary alternative due to the fact that there are using our under croft parking as a site which is still there. I have never experienced this as I moved in after they had started.
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As the notice makes clear, Chaneys are simply functionaries who have been contracted by VHMC. They have no executive authority, they're merely contractors/agents for VHMC.
VHMC is the company in question. Can we pl see their full name pl - there's no need to hide them because my guess is that VH is part of the location on the PCN.
Your 'loop' is the problem, it should (as a minimum) you, VHMC and the PPC. Ultimately you would involvethe landlord.
It is a breach of their contractual obligation to you under the lease to allow your rights effectively to be removed because of the incompetence of VHMC and the PPC.
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That's the company name (Chaneys) they have all over the foyer and is the company they communicate with in their emails. (photo attached) https://www.chaneys-cs.com/
I was not aware of an alternative company they use in Companies House. Additionally, I received an email from after lodging a complaint regarding PPM as below:
Thankyou for keeping me in the loop, however, you will be required to lodge a complaint directly with Parking & Property Management -info@pandpmanagement.co.uk and they will investigate your complaint within their organisation.
I seem to be going around in circles in the process with the only option, in my opinion please correct me if I'm wrong, seemingly being to lodge an appeal to the Independent Appeals Service. Any experience with this body? Any advice on how to proceed and any legislative text that could help me would be greatly appreciated.
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The Block management company is Chaneys Chartered Surveyors with the company number 2473115.
Really?
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02473115/filing-history
Management of real estate on a fee or contract basis
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The Block management company is Chaneys Chartered Surveyors with the company number 2473115.
I also just received a response on my appeal which was rejected as expected. I am curious as to whether there is any legislation/ text that comments on a duty of care a company must provide, in this specific circumstance being that they do not give adequate concessions when you're designated parking bay is being occupied.
Here is the text from the letter I received on PPM's appeal decision:
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Thank you for your correspondence regarding the above Parking Charge Notice (PCN). We have considered your appeal carefully and take note of the points you have raised in mitigation; however, we have decided that your appeal has been rejected on the following grounds.
The signage at the site is clearly visible and the information on the signage informs the driver of the parking
conditions at the location. Signage is prominent throughout the parking area. Signage location, size, content
and font has been audited by the International Parking Community.
It is the driver’s responsibility to check for signage, check the legality and obtain any authorisation for parking before leaving their vehicle.
Your vehicle was observed at the time the parking charge notice was issued for parking outside the confines
of a marked bay. The photographic evidence supports the issue of the parking charge. Please refer to the
photographic evidence which can be viewed on www.payppm.co.uk.
The signage throughout the site, and visible from the position of parking, makes it clear that the restrictions
apply to all vehicles parked at this site and that if vehicles park otherwise than in accordance with the terms
a charge will be payable.
Having viewed the photographic evidence, the vehicle can be seen close to a sign stating the parking regulations. Signage clearly states that vehicles must display a valid permit in the front windscreen at all times
appropriate for the area in which you are parked and parking is not permitted anywhere outside of a
marked bay including in front of the garages.
Except for: 10minutes max on estate roadways.
The parking charge was clearly advertised and you were in possession of all the information needed to make a decision. The driver chose to park. In our view, this act, by the appellant, constituted acceptance of the offer to pay the charge and formed a binding contract between the parties. It would follow that there was no inherent unfairness in the way this agreement was reached.
We agree the circumstances are unfortunate, however, it is not in our remit to be able to remove a vehicle
parked otherwise than in accordance with the conditions. Thus meaning, if another vehicle is parked in
your space, we cannot offer immediate alternative parking. Even considering the circumstances, we cannot
allow authority to park outside the confines of a marked bay whatever the circumstances.
The best practice in this situation, if you cannot park in accordance with the parking regulations, is to park
off site. Whilst we agree this may be inconvenient it will not result in a PCN being issued.
Whilst we empathise with your situation, we cannot allow parking which is not in accordance with the
parking regulations, whatever the circumstances. By not enforcing the said issue the same situation will
likely happen more often.
The reasons you have put forward for parking in a clearly regulated parking area do not justify parking
otherwise than in accordance with the restrictions. You will appreciate that everyone has what they
regard as reasonable grounds for parking. The location is private land and as such there is a need to
ensure that only vehicles conforming to the advertised restrictions can park on site.
YOUR OPTIONS NOW ARE:
1. Pay the Parking Charge Notice. If you have made your appeal within 14 days of the issue date of
the PCN, you now have a further 14 days from the date of this communication to pay the reduced
rate of £60.00 per PCN. If you have appealed more than 14 days after the date of the issue of the
PCN, the full amount of £100 per PCN will be outstanding. The PCN will progress to debt recovery
28 days after our response date if the PCN remains unpaid.
• You can pay by visiting the website www.payppm.co.uk
• By phone, calling 0207 100 2929. Please have your debit/credit card details and the information in
this letter to hand.
• By post, sending a cheque or postal order made payable to Parking and Property Management Ltd
to the address at the bottom of this letter. Please ensure the PCN number is written on the reverse
of the cheque.
2. If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to the Independent Appeals
Service (IAS). The Independent Appeals Service provides an Alternative Dispute Resolution
scheme for disputes of this type. As you have complied with our internal appeals procedure you
may use, and we will engage with, the IAS standard Appeals Service providing you lodge an appeal
within 21 days of this rejection. To appeal, the IAS will need your parking charge number, your
vehicle registration and the date the charge was originally issued. For further information, please
visit www.theias.org. You must submit an IAS appeal for each PCN separately.
If you decide to use the Independent Appeals Service (IAS), the offer of a discount for early payment will
be withdrawn and the full parking charge of £100 per PCN will apply if your appeal is dismissed.
Please note that the Independent Adjudicator is unable to cancel a charge on grounds of mitigation and
the decision will be based on facts and evidence only.
N.B. If you appeal to the IAS and then subsequently pay the charge prior to that appeal being determined,
OR alternatively pay the charge then attempt to appeal, the appeal will be cancelled and you will not be
given a further opportunity to contest the charge.
Please allow 24 hours before appealing to the IAS to ensure they have received all relevant information
regarding the status of your appeal to us.
3. If you chose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery
procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.
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The name of the 'block management company' please, and their company number(it should be on their correspondence).
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Hello,
I have contacted the estate agents regarding my rent and have yet to here back from them regarding the breakdown. I am also pushing them on trying to find specific in any agreement the landlord specifying number of parking bays and parking rights. Still waiting back on both currently.
In addition I have lodged a complaint with the block management company who confirmed that they contracted out the parking management to PPM.
The initial interaction from both block management and estate agents was to separate responsibility and suggest to call PPM as soon as another incident happens.
In the early morning today, I returned home and found a maintenance vehicle parked in my spot. I called the number and no one answered. I filed a report to them and they responded as per the email chain attached.
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Then I suggest you find out! What do they do with the money and WHY?
Nothing personal, but this must be the third similar current thread where owners appear to hand over money blithely to 'management' for unspecified purposes.
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Hello thanks for all the advice above :) Been pretty hectic so have only a thin slither of time to respond.
The estate agents (who act as the management of the property) have said this:
I am really sorry I am in no position to help with the complaint. As much as I understand how incredibly frustrating the parking company are, they are external from the management company at Winterthur Way so they won't listen to me any more than they will you.
All I can advise is should this happen again when someone is in your space please call the parking company on 02071 002929 immediately to inform them and give them the registration number of the vehicle in your space, they will then deal with this immediately. Also inform them where you have parked so you do not get a ticket.
I think the last time we spoke about parking, the landlord didn't have any documents to show any links between.
I had a look online and saw the parking company is part of the IPC. I've found a bit on their website about appealing the parking charge https://www.theipc.info/motorist-advice#:~:text=Once%20you%20have%20received%20a,the%20'submit%20complaint'%20option.
Motorist Advice
Advice for motorists if they get a parking ticket
www.theipc.info
There might be something on there that will be of use.
I'm really sorry I couldn't be of much help!
I'm not sure if that means that there wasn't any contract signed between the landlord and the PPM or if that is just a guise for not bothering to look further into matter :/ I have replied re: the head lease and whether in the landlord's contract there is a specific number of parking bays stated.
The apartment blocks are managed by someone else so I will try and get hold of them tomorrow to see if I can also get any headway from them. I am pretty sure they would be the ones that have hired them. Any advice on how I should approach them?
I have already appealed as explained but annoyingly could not find a transcript of the specifics of what I wrote, however they have sent a receipt confirming they have received it.
Also under my tenancy agreement I just pay a monthly rent to the estate agents. The only things that are extra are gas/elec internet etc, no specific mention of maintenance fee in my agreement with them.
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In amongst all the debate above, have we established whether or not the OP has spoken to the management agent for the property (or whoever has hired the parking company)?
If not this would be a good first step, and if he can convince them to intervene, by far the easiest way to resolve the matter.
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By agreeing to park “otherwise” than the conditions stipulated, there is an offer to remain as long as I will pay £60 within 14 days of the event.
Anyone can park anywhere on the estate, not necessarily in a marked bay, as long as they pay the charge. I don’t see any way of stopping anyone taking up that offer, should they agree to it.
Anyway, the OP still has a good chance of winning this battle, irrespective of the legal nuances we may be arguing about. They are dealing with a firm that is going to rely on the roboclaim practice of trying to wear down the victim.
At the end of the day, they will probably be dealing with the intellectually malnourished likes of DCB Legal, BW Legal, Gladstones et al.
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"The manufacture of a five pronged implement for manual digging results in a fork even if the manufacturer, unfamiliar with the English language, insists that he intended to make and has made a spade." - Street v Mountford [1985] 1 A.C. 809, 819 per Lord Templeman.
The issue with the "offer" is that "the above" are the "CONDITIONS OF PARKING" and otherwise than in accordance with the conditions means breach.
Presumably deferring in the context of post #8 means deferring for a period of 14 hours?
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So… if I owned an expensive car and I did not want to park it on the street, I couldn’t just drive into a parking space at this property and plan on paying £60 for the privilege? It’s just a scenario but I don’t read anything in the posted terms that stops me.
In fact, I could read the following as an invitation to do precisely that:
BY PARKING OR REMAINING AT THIS SITE OTHERWISE THAN IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE ABOVE, YOU THE DRIVER, ARE AGREEING TO THE FOLLOWING CONTRACTUAL TERMS:
You agree to pay consideration in the form of a 'parking charge' in the sum of £100, to be paid within 28 days of issue. This is reduced to £60 if paid within 14 days.
I see an offer, consideration and I can accept it. A contract.
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Do you pay a maintenance charge under your lease? If so, what does it provide?
This means that the text on the sign should be sized and positioned in such a way that it can be easily read and understood by a motorist while they are in their vehicle,
Is not correct in law. The CoPs do make provision for signs to be so read by disabled drivers, but there's no suggestion this applies here.
The PPC is not letting your space for £100. A parking charge is not a charge or licence to park - the Beavis case which makes this perfectly clear.
Let's see your maintenance/management agreement pl. Residential developments like yours often have limited companies which regulate common affairs, incl discharging many of the landowner's rights and liabilities to tenants under their leases. If you have such an entity, then ultimately you would sue them for whatever losses you incurred by virtue of the actions of their agents i.e. the PPC.
In simple terms: they are obligated to you to maintain your use of your parking space. You pay them to do this. How they do this is their choice. If they want to employ this PPC then they are ultimately responsible for ensuring that they achieve the required outcomes. But in this case they haven't. That's not your fault and no liability can fall to you.
For me the important points are: how are these common affairs managed; are you charged for these services; what are you entitled to expect in return?
The answers will be in your lease/tenancy agreement and/or a separate set of Ts and Cs.
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Can you ask your landlord for a copy of the “head lease”?
From the very limited information in your tenancy agreement, there is no mention that you will be subject to a fettering of your parking rights by a third party contractor. Is there any mention that you are obliged to display a permit to park, either in your own bay or anywhere on the property?
If the landlord or their MA has reduced the number of available parking spaces and have not provided alternative space, that is a frustration of contract if they have then given their third party PPC free reign to issue parking charges to the tenants due to their failure to provide alternative parking space.
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Thanks for the advice! Very new to all of this so need some time to digest all of this :)
Regarding the tenancy agreement, I had another look and it only states this:
Car Parking Space
21.1 To park private vehicle(s) only at the Premises.
21.2 To park in the space allocated to the Premises, if the Tenant is allocated a car parking space
However the badges that are provided to us do have a specific bay number on them that corresponds to the specific parking bay.
I have one of these stuck on the windscreen at all times. In relation to visitors, they can go into a visitor parking bay or another bay that has the same number, they must have that on display at all times. We are meant to have 2 parking bays one inside a shared garage and that one outside, however contractors are using the garage as their site office so really at the moment only have one parking space.
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IANAL so I defer to your experience in these matters. We would need to know what the lease/AST actually says or doesn't say about parking to know whether PPM have any right to issue a charge for parking at the location. If the lease allows or does not specifically prohibit parking in the manner shown, it then requires clarification with regards to the LTA whether the MA had the right to appoint PPM to have any right to issue charges.
I also think we would need to see the contract between PPM and the landowner/MA to understand exactly what services they are supposed to provide with regards to protecting the demised parking spaces. Whilst that does not defend the parking outside of the demised bay, it could reveal frustration of contract.
What rights, if any, does the leaseholder/tenant have to use of common area for themselves and/or their invited guests?
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What happened when you complained to PPM about them failing to manage the parking and them "renting" out your allocated space to an "unauthorised" vehicle? What did the managing agent of the property say when you did likewise?
"Begging the question" is bad form.
Terrible signs.
Indeed.
You need to have a read of your tenancy agreement/lease and note what it says or doesn't say about parking. PPM are allowing anyone to park in your space as long as they agree to pay £100 for the privilege.
I disagree. Such parking is clearly a breach of the conditions. The fact that they try to paint it as the price of the contract, and therefore dis-apply the doctrine of penalties, is immaterial to the proper construction.
There may also be a defence that the lease has supremacy of contract, especially if the landowner or their agents failed to adhere to the requirement of The Landlord & Tenant Act 1987 Section 37. This would need to be assessed against the master lease.
The driver may well have superiority [in law] over his own marked parking bay. I would suggest that it would take some amount of creativity to construe that into a positive right to park elsewhere, although it would be somewhat rash to dismiss the terms of the right to the marked bay out of hand.
The driver's right to park has clearly been frustrated, but it is difficult to see how that could translate into a positive right to park outwith his marked bay. However [in court], the circumstances would appear to be very relevant to the question of commercial justification. A £100 charge for breach of terms of parking is clearly a penalty unless it can be saved by commercial justification - IOW is it proportionate to a legitimate right being protected by the clause. I would suggest that the PPC would struggle to justify a charge of £100 for parking where he was not causing a problem as a direct result of their own failure to protect his marked bay with a scheme that is ostensibly intended primarily to protect such bays.
It would be far more difficult to appeal a judge's decision that there was no/insufficient commercial justification than it would a judge's decision that frustration of the ability to park in his own bay resulted in a positive right to park wherever he chose.
Unfortunately, you are dealing with an unregulated private parking company and the IPC. As long as you feel aggrieved enough about this injustice, you are most likely going to have to wait until this goes to court. PPC and the IPC are likely to ignore all the arguments above as they are basically a cabal of ex-clampers who rely on their victims capitulating under the pressure of their threat tactics.
For now, Plan A, a complaint to the Managing Agent or the landowner is your first port of call. Plans B and C, appeals to PPM and the IPCs IAS would be next but don't hold your breath for ay positive results from those. Plan D, going to court and letting a judge decide whether you owe PPM a debt or not is the most likely way that you would see this off. Many of these shyster firms will often discontinue before it ever reaches a judge, knowing that they are likely to have a hard time justifying their claim if it is robustly defended. They just hope that their victim is going to capitulate once they receive a county court claim.
This
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What happened when you complained to PPM about them failing to manage the parking and them "renting" out your allocated space to an "unauthorised" vehicle? What did the managing agent of the property say when you did likewise?
Terrible signs. You need to have a read of your tenancy agreement/lease and note what it says or doesn't say about parking. PPM are allowing anyone to park in your space as long as they agree to pay £100 for the privilege.
The signage also breaches the IPC CoP, the CRA 2015 and invalidates their ability to rely on PoFA 2012.
PoFA 2(2) and 2(3)(b)(i) and (ii) are not satisfied as those signs fail to provide "adequate notice" of the parking charge, and fail to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land. However, you may have thrown the ability to rely on using that as it would appear you have admitted to being the driver.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted
IPC CoP v9 Schedule 1 states: "The size of the text on the sign must be appropriate for the location of the sign and should be clearly readable by a Motorist having regard to the likely position of the Motorist in relation to the sign." This suggests that the readability of the text is a key consideration, particularly from the perspective of someone inside a vehicle.
This means that the text on the sign should be sized and positioned in such a way that it can be easily read and understood by a motorist while they are in their vehicle, considering where they are likely to be in relation to the sign. In other words, the text should be visible and comprehensible from the typical vantage points of a motorist approaching, passing by, or parking near the sign.
https://irp.cdn-website.com/262226a6/files/uploaded/IPC%20Code%20of%20PracticeV9%20V4.pdf
As far as the CRA is concerned, there are several abuses of the Act. However, at this initial stage, they are not likely to even be considered by PPM. Some of the CRA breaches will require reference to the landowner contract with PPM. For now, CRA 49, 50, 54, 55, 62, 63, 67, 68 and 69 apply.
In simple terms, those signs tell anyone able to read them that PPM have the right to rent out your demised parking space for the sum of £100. For example the owner of a very expensive car could decide that they can park their vehicle in your space, away from the public road, for the discounted sum of £60 if they pay the charge within 40 days of receiving the notice.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/contents/enacted
There may also be a defence that the lease has supremacy of contract, especially if the landowner or their agents failed to adhere to the requirement of The Landlord & Tenant Act 1987 Section 37. This would need to be assessed against the master lease.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1987/31/section/37
Unfortunately, you are dealing with an unregulated private parking company and the IPC. As long as you feel aggrieved enough about this injustice, you are most likely going to have to wait until this goes to court. PPC and the IPC are likely to ignore all the arguments above as they are basically a cabal of ex-clampers who rely on their victims capitulating under the pressure of their threat tactics.
For now, Plan A, a complaint to the Managing Agent or the landowner is your first port of call. Plans B and C, appeals to PPM and the IPCs IAS would be next but don't hold your breath for ay positive results from those. Plan D, going to court and letting a judge decide whether you owe PPM a debt or not is the most likely way that you would see this off. Many of these shyster firms will often discontinue before it ever reaches a judge, knowing that they are likely to have a hard time justifying their claim if it is robustly defended. They just hope that their victim is going to capitulate once they receive a county court claim.
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Batch 2 of photos
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Here is the text I wrote in the email submitting my evidence along with the evidence its self might have to do it in 2 parts. As I explained I could not retrieve the text I submitted on the appeal.
To whom it may concern,
Please find attached jpeg images in support of the above appeal submitted via your website. 3 photos are of cars parked in my space. One is dated 5th February at night, hence why I could not park my car in my spot as explained in the appeal form.
Also please see images dated 4th February and 16th February of different cars also parked in my spot as explained this happens rather regularly and has prevented me from parking in my spot multiple times.
As explained in the appeal form, please can the charge dropped in light of the fact that I was unable to park in my spot due to unauthorised vehicle parking in my space (364) overnight and having to park elsewhere as safely as possible (please note the spot I chose was not double yellow lined).
Regards,
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Hello, Apologies sure here are the updates:
1. Here is the photo of the notice the charge is 'Parked Outside the Confines of a Marked Bay'. Thing is in the tenancy lease I have we have set parking bays assigned to us and therefore shouldn't park in any other bay other than ours hence why when someone parked in my spot, I parked away an not in someone else's assigned bay.
2. Here is the photo of the signage that is on site
3. Annoyingly I seem I unable to get my response as I had to write it on a form and I have not got a transcript of it. On another post I will add what I put on my evidence email along with the photos I sent.
4. Sorry for not being clearer. Yes I am a tenant in one of the flats. It is a development built up of a number of apartment blocks each with their own parking bays assigned to them. This is started in my tenancy agreement. The agreement also states that we should only use our parking bays.
In my (probably very naïve) mind. It's very hard not to 'break the rules' where the only parking bay you are assigned is occupied by someone else. As you can see from the metadata it was very late at night I arrived back so parked out of the way and not someone else's spot. I had a lot of work so could not move the car back until the evening (which is probably the only mistake I believe I made as I also did not take a photo of the car that was still there in the morning; I can see from my apartment building).
Thanks, Alex
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We need some more information to be able to help you. For starters:
- A copy of the notice you have received. All pages, personal info redacted, all other info intact
- Photos of the signage at the site
- A copy of exactly what you submitted as your appeal
- You mention 'your' space, is this where you live? If so, what are the parking arrangements? What, exactly, does your lease say about parking?
The fact someone else was parked where they should not be does not on its own provide a particularly compelling defence, this case is about how your vehicle was parked, not whether others were breaching the terms.
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So I received a PCN (Parking Charge Notice) for parking my car half on a curb (no double or single yellow line present) just away from parking spot.
The night before however there was a random car parked when I had been out and I could not use my space. It happens so frequently and I don't want to take up someone else space. So I parked there. I could not move my car in the morning when the car had left as I was working and could only do it in the late afternoon. I have sent an appeal with a photo of the car parked in my spot in addition to several other times that this has happened.
I know that they can be sneaky and try to skirt around this so just want some advice on how best to navigate this based on lets say worst case scenario.
Thanks :)