Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: bigred247 on February 14, 2024, 06:07:32 pm

Title: Re: PCN - National Parking Enforcement Ltd - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: bigred247 on March 13, 2024, 10:27:26 am
@DWMB2
Understood. Apologies, I thought it might have confused matters. But noted for future issues.

So with the context mind, any recommendations here?
Title: Re: PCN - National Parking Enforcement Ltd - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: DWMB2 on March 12, 2024, 03:50:48 pm
Merged in line with the below from our House Rules (https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/house-rules/):

1. We operate a "one case, one thread" rule. This means that you should keep any posts relating to one case (one incident of speeding, one PCN, etc) to a single thread. Do not start multiple topics on the same case.
Title: Re: PCN - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: bigred247 on March 12, 2024, 03:39:27 pm
hey folks, this is the original NTO

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BIr0JSQ15YRv14koSClt0xt9orcoblLF/view?usp=sharing

There is a back story here which is in an earlier post. To summarise, it was recommended that the NTO should be reassigned to my sister who was the (driver) at the time of the said offence.

https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/pcn-national-parking-enforcement-ltd-vehicle-not-registered-on-permit-database/msg15656/#msg15656
Title: Re: PCN - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: andy_foster on March 09, 2024, 02:43:20 pm
Send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance!

If the driver has been identified, then the paperwork - whether the original NtK or the NtD we have been shown is irrelevant - such notices are only relevant to keeper liability when the identity of the driver is unknown.

The most relevant thing in the paperwork linked is that it has told us a key part of the story that you neglected to. If you can't or won't tell us what happened, you are simply wasting our time and your own. I am less concerned about the latter.

The obvious question mark, regarding the case, as opposed to the OP) is the signage - what it says and whether it was "there to be seen".
Title: Re: PCN - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: b789 on March 09, 2024, 01:52:42 pm
Where is the original NtK? What you have shown us is a reminder. It also claims that the keeper has identified themself as the driver. Is this true?

(https://i.imgur.com/zLAHvEo.png)

Without seeing the original NtK to see if it is PoFA compliant, it is difficult to advise exactly on the next step. Did your sister make an initial appeal?
Title: PCN - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: bigred247 on March 09, 2024, 01:12:42 pm
Hi folks,

Reason for issue: Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Ref: National Parking Enforcement Ltd

My sister has received the linked Parking Charge Notice to Driver. She was visiting someone in a housing estate from whom she had purchased an item on eBay. She parked her car in a different part of the estate where the resident lives. The estate has multiple parking areas, and because there was no space directly in front of the block where the person she was visiting resides, she parked in the next available parking area. She has since spoken with the lady she visited, who informed her that she was unaware of any parking management. To be quite frank, I'm not sure if this indicates ignorance on the part of the lady.

Does my sister have any grounds for appeal here?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mCCGO8W5PVeQDZsDp-munDN5WjWqL65W/view?usp=sharing

The date of sending of the letter is 28.02.2024 so we are still in the 14-day discount period.
Title: Re: PCN - National Parking Enforcement Ltd - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: bigred247 on February 16, 2024, 10:32:15 am
Brilliant. Thanks. All makes perfect sense. I'll get the keeper to write back identifying the driver's details and wait to hear back. Like you say, this gives more time to get some more evidence/facts together  :)
Title: Re: PCN - National Parking Enforcement Ltd - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: DWMB2 on February 16, 2024, 01:01:18 am
Quote from: bigred247 on February 15, 2024, 06:06:50 pm
Thank you for the advice. If I have understood this correctly, I believe you are recommending that the car's keeper (my mother) reply providing the details for the driver (my sister) as a first step. Then wait for the driver to receive the PCN before moving forward with the case?
It's her choice, but yes. As it stands, your mother is in National parking Enforcement's crosshairs - as their notice would seem to be compliant with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom's Act, they can hold her liable as the keeper, if they do not know who the driver is. Naming the driver would mean the company start pursuing your sister rather than your mother.

This means your mother doesn't have to deal with the hassle, and also reduces the number of people involved - we've currently got your sister driving, your mother in receipt of the notice, and you, legally speaking unconnected to the matter, acting as a middleman, a recipe for confusion!

The other advantage is that the intervening time between your mother naming the driver and them receiving their own charge will provide some additional time to gather information, and try to speak to the landowner if appropriate.
Title: Re: PCN - National Parking Enforcement Ltd - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: bigred247 on February 15, 2024, 06:08:14 pm
Quote from: DWMB2 on February 14, 2024, 08:49:46 pm
Quote from: b789 on February 14, 2024, 08:48:02 pm
Depending on what it says about parking (or doesn’t say) in the lease, there may be a defence.
I think we still need to confirm from the OP whether the car park in question is anything to do with the person or business being visited, or whether the driver just left the car nearby.

The driver has contacted the person whom she was visiting to seek more clarity around this, so i will update you shortly.
Title: Re: PCN - National Parking Enforcement Ltd - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: bigred247 on February 15, 2024, 06:06:50 pm
Quote from: H C Andersen on February 15, 2024, 12:36:29 pm
As the PCN is compliant with PoFA, and therefore the creditor is legally entitled to hold the keeper liable if they don't know the driver's details, and as the keeper wasn't driving and has not first-hand knowledge and therefore no locus with which to approach Plans A, B or C then IMO the keeper should write back to the creditor and give them the driver's details. This would avoid trying to conduct a thread with an OP who is neither the keeper nor driver but only relaying info to and from a keeper who also wasn't driving which tends to be the recipe for problems.

Just some thoughts

@H C Andersen
Thank you for the advice. If I have understood this correctly, I believe you are recommending that the car's keeper (my mother) reply providing the details for the driver (my sister) as a first step. Then wait for the driver to receive the PCN before moving forward with the case?
Title: Re: PCN - National Parking Enforcement Ltd - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: bigred247 on February 15, 2024, 06:01:45 pm
Quote from: DWMB2 on February 14, 2024, 08:49:46 pm
Quote from: b789 on February 14, 2024, 08:48:02 pm
Depending on what it says about parking (or doesn’t say) in the lease, there may be a defence.
I think we still need to confirm from the OP whether the car park in question is anything to do with the person or business being visited, or whether the driver just left the car nearby.


So the car was parked in another part of the estate where the resident lives. There were multiple pockets of parking in the estate and because there was no space directly in front of the block for whom she was visiting, she parked in the next parking pocket.
Title: Re: PCN - National Parking Enforcement Ltd - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: H C Andersen on February 15, 2024, 12:36:29 pm
As the PCN is compliant with PoFA, and therefore the creditor is legally entitled to hold the keeper liable if they don't know the driver's details, and as the keeper wasn't driving and has not first-hand knowledge and therefore no locus with which to approach Plans A, B or C then IMO the keeper should write back to the creditor and give them the driver's details. This would avoid trying to conduct a thread with an OP who is neither the keeper nor driver but only relaying info to and from a keeper who also wasn't driving which tends to be the recipe for problems.

Just some thoughts
Title: Re: PCN - National Parking Enforcement Ltd - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: andy_foster on February 14, 2024, 11:07:30 pm
Send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance - although in the context of this thread, perhaps that should have been spread over 2 or 3 posts.
Title: Re: PCN - National Parking Enforcement Ltd - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: DWMB2 on February 14, 2024, 08:49:46 pm
Quote from: b789 on February 14, 2024, 08:48:02 pm
Depending on what it says about parking (or doesn’t say) in the lease, there may be a defence.
I think we still need to confirm from the OP whether the car park in question is anything to do with the person or business being visited, or whether the driver just left the car nearby.
Title: Re: PCN - National Parking Enforcement Ltd - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: b789 on February 14, 2024, 08:48:02 pm
Depending on what it says about parking (or doesn’t say) in the lease, there may be a defence. Also, the argument about whether loading/unloading is considered parking as per Jopson v Homeguard may be argued.

However, at this stage I wouldn’t hold out much hope of the PPC or the IAS cancelling. Arguing supremacy of contract or Jopson won’t come until Plans A, B and C have been exhausted.
Title: Re: PCN - National Parking Enforcement Ltd - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: bigred247 on February 14, 2024, 08:15:02 pm
Quote from: DWMB2 on February 14, 2024, 06:15:34 pm
Quote
Is there any grounds for appeal here?
Depends on the circumstances, about which we currently know nothing.

Some questions to help us to help you:
  • Can you show us photographs of the signage as well as its layout at the site? A Google Maps link would also be useful
  • What was the driver doing there? Were they a legitimate visitor to the premises? If so, do you know why their vehicle was not registered?

@DWMB2
Thank you for your speedy response.

I can't seem to get a good image of the map on Google Maps and we don't have photographs at present. But I will try visiting the address to take some photos of the signage but this time parking in a safe location :o|

My sister was driving at the time and went to visit a seller to pick up some items she had purchased.
Title: Re: PCN - National Parking Enforcement Ltd - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: bigred247 on February 14, 2024, 08:11:29 pm
Quote from: ç on February 14, 2024, 06:17:27 pm
More often than not there are grounds for appeal. However, without knowing the reasons why your mother, who I presume is the keeper of the vehicle, received the PCN.

Were you the driver? If so, why did you park at the location without a valid permit?

That NtK appears to be compliant with PoFA 2012 which means, if the PPC don’t know your identity and it isn’t provided to them by the keeper, they can pursue the keeper for the charge.

Has the keeper tried Plan A yet? A complaint to the landowner requesting them to get their agent, the PPC, to cancel he PCN?

@b789
Thank you very much for the quick response :)

1. I believe my sister was driving the car and went to the location to pick up something she purchased from a resident at the address.
2. When you say the "landowner" are you referring to the person whom she visited and who lives at the address and is this Plan A that you are referring to above?

Title: Re: PCN - National Parking Enforcement Ltd - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: b789 on February 14, 2024, 06:17:27 pm
More often than not there are grounds for appeal. However, without knowing the reasons why your mother, who I presume is the keeper of the vehicle, received the PCN.

Were you the driver? If so, why did you park at the location without a valid permit?

That NtK appears to be compliant with PoFA 2012 which means, if the PPC don’t know your identity and it isn’t provided to them by the keeper, they can pursue the keeper for the charge.

Has the keeper tried Plan A yet? A complaint to the landowner requesting them to get their agent, the PPC, to cancel he PCN?
Title: Re: PCN - National Parking Enforcement Ltd - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: DWMB2 on February 14, 2024, 06:15:34 pm
Quote
Is there any grounds for appeal here?
Depends on the circumstances, about which we currently know nothing.

Some questions to help us to help you:
Title: PCN - National Parking Enforcement Ltd - Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Post by: bigred247 on February 14, 2024, 06:07:32 pm
Hi all,

Reason for issue: Vehicle Not Registered on Permit Database
Ref: National Parking Enforcement Ltd

My mother received the PCN linked below. Is there any grounds for appeal here?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BIr0JSQ15YRv14koSClt0xt9orcoblLF/view?usp=sharing


Thanks.