Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: ivrytwr1 on February 09, 2024, 09:09:57 pm
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Still nothing received. Sorry, but how did you see the page you image posted?
I just looked up the PCN on https://www.paynotice.co.uk/nottseastlincs/pages/step1.aspx
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Still nothing received. Sorry, but how did you see the page you image posted?
(and we haven't paid the 'charge')
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We're over 60 days since we submitted the challenge (28 March) and we haven't heard anything.
The council website says this:
(https://i.imgur.com/gFlvGGA.png)
There are only two possible explanations:
1) The PCN has been paid, in which case the council will ignore the representations and that's the end of the matter, or
2) The representation has been accepted and the PCN has been cancelled, in which case either the notice of acceptance was lost in the post, or you'll get it at some point in the next few days.
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We're over 60 days since we submitted the challenge (28 March) and we haven't heard anything.
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https://ibb.co/X3rG2bJ
Says we will hear within 28 days?
Typical council tosh ! The legal limit is 56 days from receipt of reps. It's an aspiration, that's all.
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https://ibb.co/X3rG2bJ
Says we will hear within 28 days?
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We're over the 28 days now and have had no correspondence back. Is this normal?
Where have you got this 28 days from ? A response to reps against an NtO must be served to the NtO recipient within 56 days of receipt of those reps by the enforcing authority.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2022/9780348232752/regulation/6
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We're over the 28 days now and have had no correspondence back. Is this normal?
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Submitted and screenshot taken - top tip to screenshot, ty!
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I can't see any additional issues on the notice to owner, so I would send the representation as you've drafted it (you've covered all the key points). We always recommend sending representations online, and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Post up the response when you get it and if they reject and reoffer the discount, please don't be tempted to pay without checking with us first.
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(https://i.ibb.co/pbmVRby/20240328-073119.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pbmVRby) (https://i.ibb.co/cxCSxhX/20240328-073128.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cxCSxhX) (https://i.ibb.co/k9YCMXJ/20240328-073141.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k9YCMXJ) (https://i.ibb.co/JvnZyk0/20240328-073147.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JvnZyk0) (https://i.ibb.co/0D4xDN0/20240328-073154.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0D4xDN0) (https://i.ibb.co/BCghZm5/20240328-073158.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BCghZm5)
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But you haven't yet received the Notice to Owner.
I have received the NTO, that's why i was querying if my response was suitable.
@ivrytwr1 can we see it please?
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But you haven't yet received the Notice to Owner.
I have received the NTO, that's why i was querying if my response was suitable.
Ah right.
YOur reps look OK, but see what the others say, however don't miss the deadline for submission of reps. They have 56 days to respond. Councils are under the same obligation to obey the law as the rest of us, so if they haven't made entry of reg number a requirement for obtaining a parking ticket in the Order for the car park, then they cannot enforce it by issuing a PCN.
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But you haven't yet received the Notice to Owner.
I have received the NTO, that's why i was querying if my response was suitable.
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But you haven't yet received the Notice to Owner.
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Didn't hear anything back here - so formal representation submitted. Fingers crossed.
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Sign photos
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Dear West Lindsey Council,
I do not believe that the penalty charge is payable and make representation for PCN QW50152870 on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. West Lindsey Council allege that the vehicle was deemed to be parked in a car park without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket or voucher or parking clock in John Street Car Park, Market Rasen.
Upon consulting the West Lindsey District Council (Off-Street Parking Places) (Civil Enforcement) Order 2022, the Traffic Management Order has no provisions or requirement for a vehicle registration plate being printed anywhere at all, it is simply not a legal requirement.
Case Law Pay and display - no requirement in TMO for VRM to be printed on ticket:
• Paul Van Staden v London Borough of Redbridge (2220910825, 14 January 2023)
• Fozia Rehman v London Borough of Redbridge (2230182021, 20 May 2023)
In the informal representation I made to West Lindsey Council I provided photographic evidence confirming a parking ticket had been purchased over the relevant time and date (included here in my representation), however the ticket machine had failed to print the vehicles full registration, and this is the only basis on which the PCN was issued. The ticket machine did not print the first 3 parts of the registration number:
• Actual vehicle registration: FG19VTD
• Printed ticked: 9VTD
The issued parking ticket was clearly displayed in my vehicle windscreen along with a handwritten note explaining the ticket machine had failed to print correctly (photographic evidence of this also formed part of my informal challenge to you and is included here again).
Furthermore, I have revisited the John Street Car Park and there is no signage stipulating that a full vehicle registration number is required (photographic evidence supplied).
In your response to my informal challenge, you accept that I had paid for parking but are unwilling to cancel the PCN.
I challenge liability for PCN QW50152870, if you do not accept any of the above, I nonetheless invite you to reconsider whether it would serve any traffic management purpose to pursue enforcement, considering that parking was paid for in any event.
Yours faithfully,
Better? And noted to provide all photo evidence in my reply.
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You seem to be at the formal representation stage not the tribunal, in which case a little editing is required.
Italicised references would be a common practice.
Include the photo evidence, don't just refer to its existence.
(What exactly is the wording on the machine about the input of a VRM ? That may add an additional point, though the order should be what counts).
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Dear West Lindsey Council,
I challenge liability for PCN QW50152870 on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. West Lindsey Council allege that the vehicle was deemed to be parked in a car park without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket or voucher or parking clock in John Street Car Park, Market Rasen.
Upon consulting the West Lindsey District Council (Off-Street Parking Places) (Civil Enforcement) Order 2022, the Traffic Management Order has no provisions or requirement for a vehicle registration plate being printed anywhere at all, it is simply not a legal requirement.
Case Law Pay and display - no requirement in TMO for VRM to be printed on ticket:
• Paul Van Staden v London Borough of Redbridge (2220910825, 14 January 2023)
• Fozia Rehman v London Borough of Redbridge (2230182021, 20 May 2023)
In the informal representation I made to West Lindsey Council I provided photographic evidence confirming a parking ticket had been purchased over the relevant time and date, however the ticket machine had failed to print the vehicles full registration, and this is the only basis on which the PCN was issued. The ticket machine did not print the first 3 parts of the registration number:
• Actual vehicle registration: FG19VTD
• Printed ticked: 9VTD
The issued parking ticket was clearly displayed in my vehicle windscreen along with a handwritten note explaining the ticket machine had failed to print correctly (photographic evidence of this also formed part of my informal challenge to them).
Furthermore, I have revisited the John Street Car Park and there is no signage stipulating that a full vehicle registration number is required (photographic evidence can be supplied).
In their response to my informal challenge, West Lindsey Council accept that I had paid for parking but are unwilling to cancel the PCN and I have now been given the opportunity to appeal to you the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.
I challenge liability for PCN QW50152870, if they do not accept any of the above, I nonetheless invite them to reconsider whether it would serve any traffic management purpose to pursue enforcement, considering that parking was paid for in any event.
Yours faithfully,
Could the experts please review my NTO response please :)
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There is no template, but formal representations just need to be based on your informal reps but updated if necessary to reflect what they have said in their rejection to your informal challenge. Nothing to panic about, anyway. If you put up a draft before submitting, we can check it and tidy it up if necessary.
The basic issue here is that if they want to wallop motorists for not putting a correct reg.number onto their parking ticket, they must first update the Traffic Regulation Order to make it a requirement. They have not done this.
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Evening all,
Today is the last chance to pay £25 or wait for the NTO. Can someone advise a response to the NTO please? Is there a a template email/letter we can use?
Thank you :)
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The West Lindsey District Council (Off-Street Parking Places) (Civil Enforcement) Order 2022 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XHgwL7pFBOBbwF2gCveoUc6zwgl9oXzP/view) has no provisions about the number plate being printed anywhere at all, it is simply not a legal requirement.
I would definitely wait for the notice to owner.
OK, i've been able to get photos of the car park signage, no mention of requiring vehicle registration, just that a 'valid ticket' is required - no definition of what a ticket is. I've looked through you link too - ty.
So we have decided to challenge and wait for the NTO, however, having never seen one of these before, is there any guidance on how we should reply once received?
Thanks for the help.
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The West Lindsey District Council (Off-Street Parking Places) (Civil Enforcement) Order 2022 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XHgwL7pFBOBbwF2gCveoUc6zwgl9oXzP/view) has no provisions about the number plate being printed anywhere at all, it is simply not a legal requirement.
I would definitely wait for the notice to owner.
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I think I'd be taking them to adjudication on the basis that entry of reg. number is not a requirement of the TRO for the parking location, but you'd have to check this. A very arrogant reply, IMHO, such that I'd hold their hand to the fire if it were me, but it's your money, not mine. Essentially you'd be taking a double-or-quits gamble.
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Rejected appeal:
(https://i.ibb.co/WBDQpLy/20240305-182027.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WBDQpLy)
(https://i.ibb.co/kSGj3Mg/20240305-182017.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kSGj3Mg)
They have held the £25 reduced payment until 20 Mar 24.
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Ever wondered why so many councils want the reg number on the ticket ? It's because all parking tickets are what is called "non-transferable". In other words you cannot pass on a part-used ticket to another motorist to use up the unused time. Railway tickets are the same, (or used to be !!). Very hard to check on, but with more sophisticated ticket machines, much easier, just put a keyboard on the machine and make ticket issue dependent on entry of the reg number. However, if this requirement is not added in to the TRO for the car park, a wrong reg number on a ticket cannot be enforced using the decriminalised parking regime
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She says she checked the display and i guess there is a requirement to enter the reg otherwise that wouldn't be an option?
@ivrytwr1 nah, don't make silly assumptions like that. Redbridge council insists you must input the number plate but it's not a requirement that the VRM be printed on the pay and display ticket, see Paul Van Staden v London Borough of Redbridge (2220910825, 14 January 2023) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1f7f8IQdZw9FPVkhPhKke5Nom7ZOy1c1Z) and Fozia Rehman v London Borough of Redbridge (2230182021, 20 May 2023) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BFdcuaj_Gc_m5-gw28a6KqCbjcrHmyOe).
Are you the registered keeper and do you have the V5C?
While we wait I'll get hold of the parking places order.
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:)
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Yes, we will wait to see what they come back with first.
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I guess we'll pay the £25
May be the optimum outcome in time.
Why are you so hell-bent on paying now: the discount is secure and they might cancel on consideration of her reps.
Paying now seems foolish.
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She says she checked the display and i guess there is a requirement to enter the reg otherwise that wouldn't be an option?
I guess we'll pay the £25. Thanks for the advice and help.
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Did your wife check the machine display before printing the ticket ?
Obviously, it would be best if the machines checked the validity of the registration number, but they don't because that would need a comms link. Also the machines have to be able to accept personal number plates as well, which can be quite short. We've seen this before, and only if the Order for the car park has no requirement to enter the reg number have you an argument, otherwise and reps are for mitigation only. Adjudicators cannot consider mitigation.
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You say your wife has challenged, presumably through the link above, therefore the discount is secure - yes, through link you posted.
Wifey parked in a local council car park for work - yes.
So, a regular user or one-off? 5 - 6 times per year.
Familiarity with the machines and procedures or not? Not really, 5 - 6 times per year.
The m/c has a window in which the user can check their input prior to paying, or not? Yes.
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https://www.councilparking.org/lincsdistricts/challenge/pages/OnlineChallengeEntry.aspx
You say your wife has challenged, presumably through the link above, therefore the discount is secure.
Wifey parked in a local council car park for work.
So, a regular user or one-off? Familiarity with the machines and procedures or not?
The m/c has a window in which the user can check their input prior to paying, or not?
We're just filling in gaps: she's challenged; the discount's secure; wait for response.
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Thanks.
Wife is the keeper on the V5.
(https://i.ibb.co/bFrPphF/20240210-072657.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bFrPphF)
(https://i.ibb.co/ctTD2KV/20240210-072707.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ctTD2KV)
(https://i.ibb.co/PMj5Vgx/IMG-20240209-144937.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PMj5Vgx)
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Please read this and update your post accordingly.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
No good advice can be give unless we see the PCN and also their response to your wifes's challenge. In addition, who is the keeper of the car (who is on the V5 Registration Certificate)
If you pay now, the matter is closed and you cannot take the matter forward even if you want to.
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Wifey parked in a local council car park for work. She paid for a ticket but the machine did not print the first 3 parts of the registration number ie should be AA11AAA, but printed 1AAA (make sense?!)
She looked for the ticket guy, couldn't be found and so she left the ticket and a note on her dashboard explaining what had happened and went and did her thing. Came back and found she had received a PCN for not displaying a valid ticket.
Now she has only just told me this AFTER she has gone onto the council website to challenge the ticket explaining that the machine was faulty.
Is what she has done correct? As it's a council issued ticket, should we just pay the fine before they double it?
Thanks all,