Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: privates on February 08, 2024, 12:09:09 am

Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: cp8759 on July 07, 2024, 11:34:18 pm
@privates I'm going to drop you an email about this.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: H C Andersen on July 06, 2024, 06:32:13 pm
OP, you are tooing and froing. You need to decide which it is i.e. were you assisting a passenger to the vehicle or from the vehicle at the time of the contravention?

long story short I was assisting a disabled person from the coffee shop to the vehicle. Warden had seen clearly what was going on. He said "ticket is printing already sir" so instead he said "I will put a note on the ticket and just call this number (on the plastic the ticket comes in) and let them know the situation".

Is now:
The alleged contravention did not occur because at the material time, I was assisting the mother of a family friend, Mrs (INSERT FULL NAME) to a nearby coffee shop



Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: John U.K. on July 06, 2024, 06:22:23 pm
For convenience:


(https://i.ibb.co/X4ffc1t/IMG-7105.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8Bnn1q9)

(https://i.ibb.co/5LNpdMv/IMG-7106.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BBXWmzj)
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: privates on July 06, 2024, 06:09:16 pm
There are no yellow lines or kerb blips at this location, Westminster think they don't need them because they're special.

Here's a draft formal representation:

Dear City of Westminster,

The alleged contravention did not occur because at the material time, I was assisting the mother of a family friend, Mrs (INSERT FULL NAME) to a nearby coffee shop located at 37 Queensway, London, W2 4QJ.

Mrs (INSERT SURNAME) is disabled and has mobility issues, so she could not board or alight from a vehicle without assistance, I attach a copy of her blue badge for your records.

I should further explain that when making informal representations I obtained drafting assistance from a Mr THIRD PARTY who did not fully understand the factual circumstances and incorrectly made reference to a medical appointment; there was no medical appointment, Mr THIRD PARTY simply got confused because the cafe in question happens to be called "Dr. Power".

Nonetheless the fact of the matter is that I was engaged in assisting a person with mobility issues back to the vehicle so the contravention did not occur.

The contravention could not have occurred in any event because none of the requisite road markings are present.

In light of the above I invite you to cancel the penalty charge notice.

Yours faithfully,

@privtes do not send this yet, but don't lose track of the deadline. You've not shown us the date of issue of the notice to owner so I'm not 100% sure when the deadline actually is. It would be helpful if you could show us the date of issue of the NTO.

@Incandescent please could you have a look at the whatsapp message I've sent you.

https://ibb.co/8Bnn1q9
https://ibb.co/BBXWmzj

I have received this in reply of this PCN
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: cp8759 on May 19, 2024, 07:36:16 pm
There are no yellow lines or kerb blips at this location, Westminster think they don't need them because they're special.

Here's a draft formal representation:

Dear City of Westminster,

The alleged contravention did not occur because at the material time, I was assisting the mother of a family friend, Mrs (INSERT FULL NAME) to a nearby coffee shop located at 37 Queensway, London, W2 4QJ.

Mrs (INSERT SURNAME) is disabled and has mobility issues, so she could not board or alight from a vehicle without assistance, I attach a copy of her blue badge for your records.

I should further explain that when making informal representations I obtained drafting assistance from a Mr THIRD PARTY who did not fully understand the factual circumstances and incorrectly made reference to a medical appointment; there was no medical appointment, Mr THIRD PARTY simply got confused because the cafe in question happens to be called "Dr. Power".

Nonetheless the fact of the matter is that I was engaged in assisting a person with mobility issues back to the vehicle so the contravention did not occur.

The contravention could not have occurred in any event because none of the requisite road markings are present.

In light of the above I invite you to cancel the penalty charge notice.

Yours faithfully,

@privtes do not send this yet, but don't lose track of the deadline. You've not shown us the date of issue of the notice to owner so I'm not 100% sure when the deadline actually is. It would be helpful if you could show us the date of issue of the NTO.

@Incandescent please could you have a look at the whatsapp message I've sent you.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: privates on May 14, 2024, 11:01:13 pm
..and the yellow lines without which the contravention cannot occur?

Current photos pl.

Judging from the GSV and PCN pictures there is no yellow line markings but I will double check tomorrow and take some photos
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: H C Andersen on May 09, 2024, 12:29:55 pm
..and the yellow lines without which the contravention cannot occur?

Current photos pl.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: privates on May 09, 2024, 10:50:43 am
Just for clarity, a BB cannot be used in Westminster as regards the waiting exemption but would provide strong support for the need for assisted alighting.

IMO, the sign is compliant because 'Midday-7am' is a permissible format. The three panels are placed correctly and there's no overlap between times.

But I cannot see a yellow line or kerb blips in the photos of the location, in which case the markings are improper because the restriction cannot be conveyed by signs alone.

OP, as regards your claim to the exception of assisted alighting(assuming the markings are there) the burden of proof falls to you. In this respect, you would have to show to an adjudicator - I think the council would reject- that you came, you parked, you went to the cafe, you immediately returned with the passenger who needed assistance. Do you have anything to corroborate your account e.g. dashcam record etc?

I do not have any dashcams recordings or anything, no.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: privates on May 09, 2024, 10:50:05 am
So why wasn't the blue badge on display?

The BB was not bought out on this day and it isn't mine to carry in my vehicle but I had assisted on this day
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: cp8759 on May 05, 2024, 04:14:58 pm
But I cannot see a yellow line or kerb blips in the photos of the location, in which case the markings are improper because the restriction cannot be conveyed by signs alone.
I agree, we've had this issue with Westminster bays several times previously.

@privates please engage with us and answer the queries that are outstanding, this will require a compelling representation. The absolute deadline for representations to be made is 21 May.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: H C Andersen on May 05, 2024, 01:45:51 pm
Just for clarity, a BB cannot be used in Westminster as regards the waiting exemption but would provide strong support for the need for assisted alighting.

IMO, the sign is compliant because 'Midday-7am' is a permissible format. The three panels are placed correctly and there's no overlap between times.

But I cannot see a yellow line or kerb blips in the photos of the location, in which case the markings are improper because the restriction cannot be conveyed by signs alone.

OP, as regards your claim to the exception of assisted alighting(assuming the markings are there) the burden of proof falls to you. In this respect, you would have to show to an adjudicator - I think the council would reject- that you came, you parked, you went to the cafe, you immediately returned with the passenger who needed assistance. Do you have anything to corroborate your account e.g. dashcam record etc?
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: slapdash on May 05, 2024, 09:55:44 am
"During the time from collecting my family memeber from the cafe, and assisting him to the vehicle"

Seems to be another inconsistency.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: cp8759 on May 04, 2024, 11:26:05 am
So why wasn't the blue badge on display?
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: privates on May 04, 2024, 10:16:09 am
@privates what is your relation to the disabled family member, do they have a blue badge, and what is the nature of the disability?

It is the mother of my family friend. They have a blue badge and they have mobility issues.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: cp8759 on May 02, 2024, 08:59:16 pm
@privates what is your relation to the disabled family member, do they have a blue badge, and what is the nature of the disability?
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: privates on May 01, 2024, 04:45:00 am
I have today received the NTO
@privates show us please.

https://ibb.co/W38S848
https://ibb.co/51T5kb9
https://ibb.co/Bjs0MrK
https://ibb.co/Hn7GjVH
https://ibb.co/P9LSL18
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: cp8759 on April 28, 2024, 05:28:43 pm
I have today received the NTO
@privates show us please.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: privates on April 24, 2024, 11:56:21 pm
[Edit:  no criticism intended of the original error.  I suspect it was caused because the OP was unclear as to what "Dr Power" actually was and they didn't bother to correct the obvious misunderstanding in the suggested reps]
I would suggest anyone drafting representations should check the basic facts. If someone is drafting reps based on boarding / alighting to a doctor's surgery, the person drafting the suggested reps should go onto google maps and check the distance between the place where the vehicle was parked and the doctor's' surgery to ensure the reps are credible, such basic checks would have highlighted in this case that there is no doctor's surgery.

If this ends up at the tribunal an explanation will be needed, which will unfortunately mean throwing the author of the suggested reps under the bus (by basically just telling the adjudicator that said author drafted the representations without checking the facts); this is unfortunate but it's better that we hold our hands up and win rather than overlook the issue and make the adjudicator suspicious as to what's going on or worse make him doubt the OP's credibility.

@privates let us know when you get the NTO please.

I have today received the NTO
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: cp8759 on April 14, 2024, 09:17:52 pm
[Edit:  no criticism intended of the original error.  I suspect it was caused because the OP was unclear as to what "Dr Power" actually was and they didn't bother to correct the obvious misunderstanding in the suggested reps]
I would suggest anyone drafting representations should check the basic facts. If someone is drafting reps based on boarding / alighting to a doctor's surgery, the person drafting the suggested reps should go onto google maps and check the distance between the place where the vehicle was parked and the doctor's' surgery to ensure the reps are credible, such basic checks would have highlighted in this case that there is no doctor's surgery.

If this ends up at the tribunal an explanation will be needed, which will unfortunately mean throwing the author of the suggested reps under the bus (by basically just telling the adjudicator that said author drafted the representations without checking the facts); this is unfortunate but it's better that we hold our hands up and win rather than overlook the issue and make the adjudicator suspicious as to what's going on or worse make him doubt the OP's credibility.

@privates let us know when you get the NTO please.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: privates on April 11, 2024, 12:40:58 pm
Total failure to consider. If it were me, I'd wait fopr the NtO and make the same reps, add ing supporting evidence from the passenger of the doctor's appointment, but see what the experts here say.


I think somebody earlier in the thread made the mistake of thinking Dr Power is a medical doctor.

I don't think that's what Dr Power is...  https://drvspower.co.uk/

(The OP repeated the error by copying the suggested reps verbatim - even though they must have known there was no "consultation" and no surgery)

[Edit:  no criticism intended of the original error.  I suspect it was caused because the OP was unclear as to what "Dr Power" actually was and they didn't bother to correct the obvious misunderstanding in the suggested reps]

That is correct. Dr. Power is the name of the coffee shop in which we had attended. I hadn't noticed the first part of the appeal mentioning the 'surgery' but in the second paragraph of appeal the cafe is mentioned
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: ManxTom on April 09, 2024, 06:55:40 pm
Total failure to consider. If it were me, I'd wait fopr the NtO and make the same reps, add ing supporting evidence from the passenger of the doctor's appointment, but see what the experts here say.


I think somebody earlier in the thread made the mistake of thinking Dr Power is a medical doctor.

I don't think that's what Dr Power is...  https://drvspower.co.uk/

(The OP repeated the error by copying the suggested reps verbatim - even though they must have known there was no "consultation" and no surgery)

[Edit:  no criticism intended of the original error.  I suspect it was caused because the OP was unclear as to what "Dr Power" actually was and they didn't bother to correct the obvious misunderstanding in the suggested reps]
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: John U.K. on April 09, 2024, 04:24:04 pm
Total failure to consider. If it were me, I'd wait fopr the NtO and make the same reps, add ing supporting evidence from the passenger of the doctor's appointment, but see what the experts here say.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: privates on April 09, 2024, 03:01:38 pm
I wish to challenge this penalty charge on the basis that the contravention did not occur because I was engaged in boarding a passenger to the vehicle under the assisted boarding exemption.

At the time of this penalty charge notice I was assisting my disabled family member to board my car. The person concerned had previously attended a consultation with Dr. Power, 37 Queensway, London W2 4QJ, and due to a walking disability had gone to the adjacent cafe to the surgery, to await my arrival. When I arrived, I was only able to park the car on the opposite side of the street to the cafe. This was also the closest place that would have been safe for me to assist them from the coffee shop to the car.

During the time from collecting my family memeber from the cafe, and assisting him to the vehicle, the warden who had previously issued the ticket had subsequently witnessed the situation.  He told me that he was not able to cancel the ticket because it was printing already. He had then told me he will make an additional note against the notes for the penalty charge and told me to contact the number on the notice which I have done so,  but the official who took my call asked me to write an appeal and submit this as verbal appeals are not acceptable.

I therefore request that this penalty charge to be cancelled on the basis that boarding and alighting passengers is an exemption to the restrictions in the parking bay. I will to this email attach a witness statement signed.


This was the challenge I had sent through
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: John U.K. on April 09, 2024, 08:28:20 am
Image too small to read :(  So have posted BBcodes here.

(https://i.ibb.co/Jc4mZhJ/IMG-5071.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tHtQRdr)

(https://i.ibb.co/Xj1VJwG/IMG-5073.jpg) (https://ibb.co/171b2S4)

Have we seen your challenge? Then we can see how much he's failed to consider it.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: privates on April 09, 2024, 01:37:28 am
@privates the restriction is not signed properly, but if you were engaged in assisted alighting then it hardly matters anyway as you have a defence in any event.

I see you challenged the PCN on the 20th so let us know when you get a response.

This is the response to the appeal I received today

https://ibb.co/171b2S4
https://ibb.co/tHtQRdr
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: cp8759 on March 10, 2024, 10:28:17 pm
@privates the restriction is not signed properly, but if you were engaged in assisted alighting then it hardly matters anyway as you have a defence in any event.

I see you challenged the PCN on the 20th so let us know when you get a response.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: Incandescent on February 15, 2024, 11:36:48 pm
What is clear is that somebody in the council has realised that the signs are rather confusing, and could have been done better, but instead of altering the signs, they've decided to put up a large sign explaining the signs below !
This is a rather strange restriction, in that it only permits loading 7 am to mid day, with the rest of the time being no parking or loading even overnight. The only thing allowed at this bay at any time would be boarding/alighting passengers. A point to make is that the large sign at the top is not a traffic sign, only the signs below it are.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: privates on February 15, 2024, 05:10:50 pm
@privates please give us a link to the exact spot on google street view. Looking at the CEO photos, I don't think the restriction is signed properly.

Is the restriction signed properly or shall I proceed with above appeal?
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: privates on February 13, 2024, 01:29:14 am
@privates please give us a link to the exact spot on google street view. Looking at the CEO photos, I don't think the restriction is signed properly.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/Dhkaf2etyPcbBGxD6
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: cp8759 on February 12, 2024, 10:42:39 pm
@privates please give us a link to the exact spot on google street view. Looking at the CEO photos, I don't think the restriction is signed properly.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: H C Andersen on February 08, 2024, 10:16:36 pm
OP, we need a straight story pl.

You were assisting someone from the doctor's or from a coffee shop? 

In either case, did you park and then immediately collect the person i.e. if at the doctor's, they were ready, and if at the coffee shop you didn't join them for a drink?

Helping someone, however much in need, with whom you've been chatting over a latte isn't assisted boarding, there are very strict conditions which apply to this exemption.

Let's be clear and then make the case equally clearly.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: Incandescent on February 08, 2024, 09:49:45 pm
Try this: -

I wish to challenge this penalty charge on the basis that the contravention did not occur because I was engaged in boarding a passenger to the vehicle under the assisted boarding exemption.

At the time of this penalty charge notice I was assisting my disabled family member to board my car. The person concerned had previously attended a consultation with Dr. Power, 37 Queensway, London W2 4QJ, and due to a walking disability had gone to the adjacent cafe to the surgery, to await my arrival. When I arrived, I was only able to park the car on the opposite side of the street to the cafe. This was also the closest place that would have been safe for me to assist them from the coffee shop to the car.

During the time from collecting my family memeber from the cafe, and assisting him to the vehicle, the warden who had previously issued the ticket had subsequently witnessed the situation.  He told me that he was not able to cancel the ticket because it was printing already. He had then told me he will make an additional note against the notes for the penalty charge and told me to contact the number on the notice which I have done so,  but the official who took my call asked me to write an appeal and submit this as verbal appeals are not acceptable.

I therefore request that this penalty charge to be cancelled on the basis that boarding and alighting passengers is an exemption to the restrictions in the parking bay. I will to this email attach a witness statement signed.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: privates on February 08, 2024, 08:44:57 pm
You've repeated your post for some reason.

Can you describe the circumstances more fully. Your thread hints at what is called "assisted boarding" and therefore potentially grounds for cancellation of the PCN. 

To help us help you, please post-up a GSV link to the exact location, as Queensway is a long street.

The above location is bang on.

Was helping my auntie from the coffee shop to the vehicle. This is directly across the road with a safe location to park

Draft of appeal :

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am appealing this penalty charge on the assist boarding exemption.
At the time of this penalty charge notice I was assist boarding my family member whom is disabled from Dr. Power, 37 Queensway, London W2 4QJ to the vehicle which was right across the street. This was the closest place that would have been safe to assist them from the coffee shop. During the assist the warden who had issued the ticket had witnessed the situation but was not able to cancel the ticket as he stated it is printing already. He had then told me he will put a note on the penalty charge and for me to contact the number on the notice which I had done so but they had asked me to write an appeal. Due to there trouble walking I must have parked in this location to assist them after our time was done in the coffee shop.

I ask for this penalty charge to be cancelled due to the above reasons. I will to this email attach a witness statement signed.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: sparxy on February 08, 2024, 03:46:55 am
https://maps.app.goo.gl/aG3f9WU98xvRxJ8f9

I believe OP was parked here given the lamp post reference in the picture (and the building in the distance with the fancy shape round the windows).
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: Incandescent on February 08, 2024, 12:29:28 am
You've repeated your post for some reason.

Can you describe the circumstances more fully. Your thread hints at what is called "assisted boarding" and therefore potentially grounds for cancellation of the PCN.   

To help us help you, please post-up a GSV link to the exact location, as Queensway is a long street.
Title: Re: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: privates on February 08, 2024, 12:11:21 am
Hope everyone is well,

long story short I was assisting a disabled person from the coffee shop to the vehicle. Warden had seen clearly what was going on. He said "ticket is printing already sir" so instead he said "I will put a note on the ticket and just call this number (on the plastic the ticket comes in) and let them know the situation". So I done as asked but the woman from the helpline explained no note has been put on there and I would have to appeal it regardless as they can not cancel PCNs on there, main point being the warden didn't even put the note on there.

I'm going to appeal based on the reasons above but was wondering if there is any other grounds of appeal?

https://ibb.co/3pHtygL
https://ibb.co/yRLfthz
https://ibb.co/hWkHxSv
https://ibb.co/LzKx0x6
https://ibb.co/yqNVJDT
https://ibb.co/L0HTwTp
https://ibb.co/HXL9wx2

Thanks.
Title: Parked or loading in restricted street
Post by: privates on February 08, 2024, 12:09:09 am
Hope everyone is well,

long story short I was assisting a disabled person from the coffee shop to the vehicle. Warden had seen clearly what was going on. He said "ticket is printing already sir" so instead he said "I will put a note on the ticket and just call this number (on the plastic the ticket comes in) and let them know the situation". So I done as asked but the woman from the helpline explained no note has been put on there and I would have to appeal it regardless as they can not cancel PCNs on there, main point being the warden didn't even put the note on there.

I'm going to appeal based on the reasons above but was wondering if there is any other grounds of appeal?

https://ibb.co/3pHtygL
https://ibb.co/yRLfthz
https://ibb.co/hWkHxSv
https://ibb.co/LzKx0x6
https://ibb.co/yqNVJDT
https://ibb.co/L0HTwTp
https://ibb.co/HXL9wx2

Thanks.