Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: MissO on February 06, 2024, 02:42:28 am
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FOIR sent. My gut feeling is to ask for an adjournment pending their reply.
Still not received. Deadline was last Wednesday. ::)
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The issue was the adequacy of the signage.
The appellant provided what she asserted was the reverse side of the signage in question, that is the signage that was facing her. The signs were blank. The signage that was facing her vehicle could not be seen in the video footage.
The local authority’s photographic evidence, I find to be unsatisfactory. There is no photographic evidence of a right-turn warning sign as depicted on the diagram provided by the authority. The other photographic evidence provided by the authority is left to conjecture; there are no road descriptions. The appellant asserted that it was not the signage at the scene.
On balance, I prefer the appellant’s evidence and will allow the appeal.
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@Hippocrates
You beat me to it!! Yes we WON!!
Points that were considered;
- Council Evidence provided did not show the sign was present when I entered the road. Camera captured front of the car and not from the back, as it enter the road. This would have also shown the signs at the entrance of the road if they did!
- they provided a whole load of pics that had no correlation to where the contravention apparently happened. They added pictures of signage along the length of the road, which were random, as we couldn’t be sure they were in fact from the named Valley Road, as they showed no road names!
- witness statement helped stating passenger also, did not see any signs alerting motorists of no entry.
- the additional evidence I obtained also helped as it showed where the signage “should” have been present but wasn’t. Instead, there were washed up posters attached to the lamppost.
Can’t thank you enough honestly and everyone who gave advice here also!
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Won: no correlation of photos with warning signage.
Not by the way, it was an absolute pleasure to meet the OP and her little one! The latter at one time was gripping one of my fingers while I was talking to the adjudicator. ;D This case is a testament to the absolute necessity to turn up in person. The adjudicator who heard the appeal is one of the best in my view.
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FOIR sent. My gut feeling is to ask for an adjournment pending their reply.
I wouldn't waste an adjournment until we know they're going to contest.
They are. Saw the file a week ago.
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FOIR sent. My gut feeling is to ask for an adjournment pending their reply.
I wouldn't waste an adjournment until we know they're going to contest.
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FOIR sent. My gut feeling is to ask for an adjournment pending their reply.
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Funny enough I passed Valley Road yesterday and if you see the pretty signs that have now been put up, good job I had gone before as the evidence looks very different!!
Evidence that the Council itself considered the signage inadequate.
I would make an immediate FOIR to ascertain when the job number was created and when the works were completed - and why???
I think I am doing this case as I am there anyway. I am!
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Do not send anything yet, and don't worry about the silly 3 day thing, that's just a templated letter. In practice if you get the evidence that late you'll just call the tribunal and postpone the hearing. As an appellant you get up to two hearings with no questions asked, as long as you call the tribunal before the day of the hearing, and you can use each reschedule to postpone the case by up to 28 days.
Take full advantage of that and do not do anything until you have the council evidence, and once you have it do not let the council rush you either.
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Funny enough I passed Valley Road yesterday and if you see the pretty signs that have now been put up, good job I had gone before as the evidence looks very different!!
Evidence that the Council itself considered the signage inadequate.
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Yes as you stated I have to rightly assume the adjudicator has no knowledge of Valley road and this is a good start to paint the picture. I’ll add some extras I believe are relevant too
Thanks once again
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IMO, you travelling this road regularly and the council knowing the road = both you and they are starting from the wrong point as regards the adjudicator because they don't know 'Valley Road(North)' from a hole in the head!
I suggest that you set a clear and concise context.
On *** my car was recorded as heading ***(N/S/E/W) in Valley Road between *** and ****(names of roads). I can see that based solely upon the council's CCTV and photos the presence of 'motor vehicles prohibited' signs which give effect to traffic travelling in the opposite direction it would appear that my car was in a length of road where it should not have been.
I entered this length of road by (turning left/right/going straight on) at its junction with ***(road(s)). I did not see any prohibition signs in my direction and I dispute that such signs were in situ.
Would this capture the essence for the adjudicator and allow your evidence to continue with your photos etc?
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@cp8759
Yes my hearing is face to face, thank you so much.
I’m still waiting on the council pack however it states they can send it up until 3 days before the date.
Funny enough I passed Valley Road yesterday and if you see the pretty signs that have now been put up, good job I had gone before as the evidence looks very different!!
I haven’t sent my rep for the appeal yet, I’m hoping to get that done by today or tomorrow.
I will search to see if I can get my written statement somehow. However in all honesty, my only claim was that the camera was facing the opposite direction and they didn’t provide evidence that I had seen the sign on entering the road, as that too was facing the same direction I was driving in.
I’ve attached my unprofessional annotated picture I sent back to them. From the advice here I wish I had done better leg work before I sent the appeal in
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I think there is a hearing on one of the days Mr Schofeldt is there. ;) March.
Getting confused with my MI6 identities but PM sent on this forum. ;D
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@MissO have you requested a hearing? If not, call the tribunal call centre now and ask them to change the hearing from postal to either personal or telephone.
Also have you received the council evidence pack?
And can you please show us your representations to the council, and the appeal you sent to the tribunal?
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Will do, thank you so much. Whatever the outcome I will come back here to share, if there’s anything said that can help anyone else in the future!
Ps forgot to add the screenshot from the Lambeth website where the notice should have been listed but isn’t there
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Keep those photos for use with your appeal at London Tribunals.
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Soooo from your advice I took a quick spin there this afternoon and obviously the signs are now updated. However there’s an A4 sheet of paper on a lamppost dated 19/01/24 informing of the amendment coming into force from 24th Jan 2024. I then went online to Lambeth website and the previous (the first update informing motor vehicles will not be able to enter the road) is not there?
Google link with all the pictures taken today
https://photos.app.goo.gl/zRwQpC6PFF8yjLXM7
As already mentioned too, why did the council not submit evidence of my car passing a driver facing sign as I allegedly entered a prohibited road?
If there was any sign there on the day I travelled, it might have been those washed out a4 sheets of paper - how is this a proper sign for a motorist to see?
Thankfully I wasn’t riding alone and can get a witness statement.
Since it’s now at tribunal stage, they’ve said the full £130 is payable, there’s no harm in trying to defend my case with everything I can
Thank you to everyone
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The civil law test applied by adjudicators is "on the balance of probabilities". However, if the council provide no proof of the presence of the sign in their evidence, then you should win, but library photos plus a witness statement can be acceptable.
Provided that the photos of the signs are not that dated (old) or undated.
Good point.
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The civil law test applied by adjudicators is "on the balance of probabilities". However, if the council provide no proof of the presence of the sign in their evidence, then you should win, but library photos plus a witness statement can be acceptable.
Provided that the photos of the signs are not that dated (old) or undated.
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The civil law test applied by adjudicators is "on the balance of probabilities". However, if the council provide no proof of the presence of the sign in their evidence, then you should win, but library photos plus a witness statement can be acceptable.
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Found the original too. I’m so grateful for all the replies, I’m going to try head out today to get some pics but I’m sure they would have rectified the signage by now! Should they not provide evidence that the signage was in place on the said day, instead of just “saying” it was there?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hello,
It stated Motor Vehicles
I’ve attached it again here, I hope this is a better quality to see, many thanks
[attachment deleted by admin]
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PCN? Does it state what vehicles? Need to see it.
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Hello
Thank you so much for your reply,
Hopefully the link below will show all the required documents if not please do let me know,
Really appreciate
https://photos.app.goo.gl/2qa8MzbyXJqxBFSQ6
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If you have registered the appeal at the Tribunal, you certainly do not pay it now!
We need:
1. The whole PCN
2. The whole of your representations.
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Hello All, I’m new here and hope I’ve followed all the rules, so here goes.. I got a PCN from Lambeth stating contravention code 52m (will attach evidence so I’m not typing it all). I appealed based on the evidence provided shows my car facing the same direction as the sign meant to warn me of possible contravention (please see annotated pic too with red arrows lol). This is a road I travel all the time but they have recently changed entry rules. On the said day, there was no sign warning me not to enter the road, neither have Lambeth provided evidence of a sign being there. I now have a tribunal case in March! Do I have a case to defend or should I count my pennies and pay the fine?
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