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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: frankel on July 01, 2023, 12:48:35 pm

Title: Re: Paid PCN on 14th day, but have been sent Charge Certificate for not paying. Ealing Council
Post by: frankel on July 03, 2023, 05:21:00 pm
@cp8759 I wrote as you suggested to appeals@ealing,and cc'd the head of parking, recieved an email from one of his staff.

This is her email to me:

"Thank you for your email.xxxxxxx has asked that I respond.

 

Having investigated the case I can advise you that our records show that a payment of £65 was received 30/05/2023. However due to a technical error the monies were not assigned to the case and therefore progressed to the Charge Certificate being sent.

 

The case has now been paid and updated accordingly. No further action is required by you."

Just like to thank you,and the others who advise selflessy on here,without asking for anything back. My faith in humanity is restored.

(But not in the effing local council)
 

Title: Re: Paid PCN on 14th day, but have been sent Charge Certificate for not paying. Ealing Council
Post by: cp8759 on July 02, 2023, 10:58:13 pm
Quote from: frankel on July 02, 2023, 09:55:22 pm
Thank you.I will do that.

What are my chances of success :(
This seems like a simple error on the part of the council and they've had their money, so I see no reason why you shouldn't succeed. Ultimately if all else fails a complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman is your ultimate redress.
Title: Re: Paid PCN on 14th day, but have been sent Charge Certificate for not paying. Ealing Council
Post by: frankel on July 02, 2023, 09:55:22 pm
Thank you.I will do that.

What are my chances of success :( 
Title: Re: Paid PCN on 14th day, but have been sent Charge Certificate for not paying. Ealing Council
Post by: cp8759 on July 02, 2023, 08:24:51 pm
Quote from: frankel on July 02, 2023, 03:46:57 pm
Hi cp8759 thank you.

Couple of questions, is that the correct email address for Ealing? as when I do a search I get parkingrep@ealing.gov.uk.
It is the correct address for Ealing, but you can always email it to both addresses.
Also CC Pritesh Kalyan at KalyanP@ealing.gov.uk (he's the Parking Operations Manager at Ealing Council).
Title: Re: Paid PCN on 14th day, but have been sent Charge Certificate for not paying. Ealing Council
Post by: guest179 on July 02, 2023, 04:06:42 pm

This letter would at least get a person to look into the matter, up to now it's been an automatic process.

My bank account shows transaction on the 30th,but funds sent 31st.

You're not responsible for cash movement dynamics.
Title: Re: Paid PCN on 14th day, but have been sent Charge Certificate for not paying. Ealing Council
Post by: frankel on July 02, 2023, 03:46:57 pm
Hi cp8759 thank you.

Couple of questions, is that the correct email address for Ealing? as when I do a search I get parkingrep@ealing.gov.uk.

Regarding the copy of the bank statement,would the pdf receipt of the transaction,as above, be sufficient for the council,or should I send a copy of statement- we know how pedantic these councils are.

There is a section on thier website for appeals for PCN's,but I'm at the charge certificate stage.

Thanks
Title: Re: Paid PCN on 14th day, but have been sent Charge Certificate for not paying. Ealing Council
Post by: cp8759 on July 02, 2023, 03:08:42 pm
You'll just have to write to appeals@ealing.gov.uk (put the PCN number in the subject line):

Dear London Borough of Ealing,

I received PCN number EA58156138 dated 17 May 2023, and I paid the charge of £65 on 30 May 2023 which was the 14th day.

As I paid the amount required within the 14 day time limit, that should have been the end of the matter, but I have now received a charge certificate. As it appears the charge certificate has been issued in error, could you please cancel it and confirm the £65 payment has been accepted as full payment.

I attach a copy of my bank statement showing the payment of £65 was made on 30 May 2023, the 14th day.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Paid PCN on 14th day, but have been sent Charge Certificate for not paying. Ealing Council
Post by: frankel on July 02, 2023, 02:46:04 pm
Hi, I'm attaching the pdf of the transaction.
BTW,it also gives a reciept number.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XOrNt0qQYZgQ9B7WHvXL7YUROHVrbKVs/view?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Paid PCN on 14th day, but have been sent Charge Certificate for not paying. Ealing Council
Post by: cp8759 on July 02, 2023, 01:50:03 pm
The "payment successful" page also shows this message:

(https://i.imgur.com/dhi8FcZ.png)

Have you actually checked that the money left your bank account?

If so can you show us the transaction from your bank statement please? The information shown there might provide a clue.
Title: Re: Paid PCN on 14th day, but have been sent Charge Certificate for not paying. Ealing Council
Post by: frankel on July 02, 2023, 12:20:34 pm
Thank you both for your replies,it appears Ugly duckling is saying that Fraser's suggestion won't work.

I have re-set the google my drive and these links should work:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xPkIf9sRLxmLmIxaXikDZq5I5FpvylIp/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xQzXpF59lVmkNeDhLMJjcCOU-tX9clgn/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xWXiRJ5NkVXpJ1_ENNj4yIAe-NhaTQNq/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xbvgZw5quEWDtVE0_o5xfhcwuNMPcEhN/view?usp=sharing

As you will see from the charge certificate,they have recieved the £65.00.
Thier website confirms payment made on the 30th.
My bank account shows transaction on the 30th,but funds sent 31st.

@Ugly duckling- so despite this,I have no recourse?
Title: Re: Paid PCN on 14th day, but have been sent Charge Certificate for not paying. Ealing Council
Post by: guest179 on July 02, 2023, 10:39:18 am
Sadly you cannot make a Stat Dec on the grounds that the penalty has been paid. The only grounds provided under the London Local Authorities Act are:

2)The statutory declaration must state that the person making it—

(a)did not receive the penalty charge notice in question;

(b)made representations to the enforcing authority under paragraph 1 above but did not receive a notice of rejection from that authority; or

(c)appealed to a traffic adjudicator under paragraph 4 above against the rejection by that authority of representations made by him under paragraph 1 above but had no response to the appeal.

Can't open the links, but it's not essential.

A PCN must state..:
(iv)that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of the notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by the specified proportion;

Issue date 17th gives a latest date on which the only penalty which can be demanded is the discount of 30th, 17th being day 1.

But this cannot be about late payment because otherwise they would be pursuing you for the outstanding surcharged penalty of £65*1.5. But according to you they're pursuing you for £195 which can only mean that a payment, whether £65 or £0.65p was not received.

I cannot see the CC, but somewhere on its face it should say what's been paid - not by deduction and subtraction but in those words. Therefore it would appear than no payment of any type was received at any time.
Check your bank account again, was there a reversal of the 'payment' some time after the 30th? If not, then get on to the council, but not in a confrontational manner, just explain.

In my opinion, do not wait for an OfR
Title: Re: Paid PCN on 14th day, but have been sent Charge Certificate for not paying. Ealing Council
Post by: Incandescent on July 02, 2023, 12:07:42 am
Quote from: frankel on July 01, 2023, 10:31:37 pm
Could someone confirm if my maths is correct regarding the 14 days rule from the date of the PCN?
Date of issue:17.05.23 
14 days INCLUDING the 17th falls on the 30th.
Am I correct?
Yes, for avoidance of doubt, do not pay the Charge Certificate, wait for the Order for Recovery.

To make sure you don't miss this vital document, or at least knowledge that the debt has been registered, call TEC about a week after the CC payment period has expired, to enquire whether the debt has been registered. Call every week to 10 days after that. I'm afraid you have to be a bit proactive when it gets to this stage. OfRs have been kown to go astray. The plus point of knowing when the debt has been registered is that you don't need to have the OfR in your hand, you can download the relevant form from the TEC website, fill it in and send it off.
Title: Re: Paid PCN on 14th day, but have been sent Charge Certificate for not paying. Ealing Council
Post by: frankel on July 01, 2023, 10:31:37 pm
Could someone confirm if my maths is correct regarding the 14 days rule from the date of the PCN?
Date of issue:17.05.23 
14 days INCLUDING the 17th falls on the 30th.
Am I correct?
Title: Re: Paid PCN on 14th day, but have been sent Charge Certificate for not paying. Ealing Council
Post by: frankel on July 01, 2023, 10:26:48 pm
Thank you Fraser for replying.

 I'm not sure I follow you; does that mean I shouldn't pay?
Title: Re: Paid PCN on 14th day, but have been sent Charge Certificate for not paying. Ealing Council
Post by: Incandescent on July 01, 2023, 08:31:12 pm
Quote
The charge notice gives no options other than to make a payment.
That's because under the legislation, the CC can only be paid, not appealed. There is, however, a back stop when the council register the debt at the Traffic Enforcement Centre. The council then must issue the final statutory document called an Order for Recovery.  Once the debt is registered, you can submit a Statutory Declaration stating that you have paid the PCN. The matter then reverts to the PCN stage, and you can then submit reps that you paid the PCN on such-and-such a date.
Title: Re: Paid PCN on 14th day, but have been sent Charge Certificate for not paying. Ealing Council
Post by: frankel on July 01, 2023, 12:54:20 pm
Other screenshot of the council's page where payment was made.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xQzXpF59lVmkNeDhLMJjcCOU-tX9clgn/view?usp=drive_link
Title: Paid PCN on 14th day, but have been sent Charge Certificate for not paying. Ealing Council
Post by: frankel on July 01, 2023, 12:48:35 pm
Hi All,

I recieved a PCN for doing a prohibited left turn-50JL.

I did not dispute it and paid the 50% discounted penalty of £65.00 on the 14th day of date of notice: 17.05.23.
By my reckoning the 14th day,counting from the 17th falls on the 30th.

I paid on the council's website,which was very slow,on the 30th;however,I managed to make a payment,and it shows as "Payment successful" and took a photo of the page (see attached). However, in description there is an error message about timing out but I did not cancel the operation as it says.

My online bank payment details show that the "Transaction date" was the 30th, and "Date posted" as the 31st.

Ealing have now sent a Charge certificate,demanding an extra £130.00,on top of the £65.00 already paid.

The original PCN I tore up,but managed to put some of it together as you can see!

Is there any chance of sucessfuly challenging this. The charge notice gives no options other than to make a payment.

TIA
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xbvgZw5quEWDtVE0_o5xfhcwuNMPcEhN/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xPkIf9sRLxmLmIxaXikDZq5I5FpvylIp/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xWXiRJ5NkVXpJ1_ENNj4yIAe-NhaTQNq/view?usp=drive_link