Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Speeding and other criminal offences => Topic started by: andy_foster on June 15, 2023, 12:30:20 am
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***Read This First - Before Posting***
[N.B. This is a quick and dirty replacement for the outdated and borderline pointless "Read This First" post carried over from the previous forum. If anyone wants to make any suggestions, additions or even redraft the whole thing, please do NOT PM me about it, simply post in the Flame Pit and I/we will pick it up.]
This forum is for advice for dealing with "live" speeding or other criminal motoring offence cases.
For private parking tickets ("Parking Charge Notices"), please post in the private parking tickets forum.
For decriminalised parking tickets from local authorities, and any other "Penalty Charge Notices", please post in the council forum.
For random questions regarding whether you are likely to have been caught, etc., if you haven't been stopped by the police or received a NIP, etc., either pretend that you're a grown up and see if anything drops through the letterbox, or if you really must ask the question, we have a "Have I Been Caught?" thread specifically for such posters in the Flame Pit.
Do not hijack other people's thread to ask for advice regarding your "similar" case, do not start new threads to ask new questions regarding your existing case and do not send unsolicited PMs to members seeking 1-2-1 advice.
The regulars on this forum give up their free time to advise those facing motoring legal issues. Nobody is obliged to do so. Please show some respect by making reasonable efforts to provide clear and understandable information. If we can't understand what happened, we aren't the ones whose licences are on the line. Most notices have a clear title at the top. We have yet to see one that describes itself as "The Letter".
As a matter of forum policy we, as a forum, are not here to judge your driving, those that feel that your [alleged] crimes are too heinous to deserve their help are free to ignore your case (as is everyone anyway). However, that liberal attitude applies to the law of the land, not to our own rules. This is our forum, and we expect those seeking advice (and those giving it) to show a degree of respect and follow our rules.
Try to avoid ranting. We are here to offer you advice on the legal issues, not listen to vitriol. If you want someone to listen to you rant, get a dog (or join the A20 Facebook group).
General
Where possible, you should seek advice before acting.
Always assume that anything related to a motoring legal matter could potentially be evidence in court - or could have if you didn't throw it away.
Blunt pencils are better than sharp memories. Take contemporaneous notes of anything contentious and maintain a timeline of events.
We apply the law to the facts, not the other way around. Please don't ask us to explain the law pertaining to <x> in a vacuum, and don't ask us to suggest "facts" that if successfully adopted would constitute a defence.
Posting on behalf of...
Other than when you're posting on behalf of a "friend", having the same meaning as "my friend has a rash", before posting ask yourself whether you're actually helping or simply wasting everyone's time.
Is there a good reason why the person concerned can't post themselves? Is their English so poor that we would have difficulty understanding them - in which case is your English good enough? And can you provide the necessary information to enable us to provide meaningful advice? Or is the person concerned not interested in dealing with it, and you want to feel good about yourself by "helping" by wasting our time pulling teeth and providing advice that they are unlikely to act on?
"I read online somewhere that..."
Don't. Just don't!
By all means do your own research - after all this is just a rough and ready quick guide - but if you want us to offer an opinion on something you read "somewhere" without being able to cite your source, you deserve all the abuse you will get.
If your source is AI - we will look for you, we will find you and we will kill you. Or, to put it another way, how many "r"s are there in the word "strawberry"? AI *can* be a useful research tool but only insofar as it can help you find actual sources. Otherwise, might as well ask the magic 8-ball.
NIPs
Many motoring offences require a NIP to be served on the driver or Registered Keeper within 14 calendar days of the date of the alleged offence. It is exceptionally rare for the police to know who the driver was, so invariably the first NIP is sent to the Registered Keeper.
Minor errors in a NIP, which do not negate the purpose of enabling the driver to recall the incident which gave rise to the allegation, do not void the NIP. E.g. if you know that the location on the NIP is wrong because you know you got caught just past the bus stop, the NIP is stil valid.
S. 172
NIPs almost invariably include a requirement under s. 172 RTA 1988 to name the driver. If you are unable to recall who was driving, you will be given the chance to convince a skeptical bench of magistrates that you honestly don't know and have made every reasonable effort to find out.
A conviction for an s. 172 offence carries 6 points and a fine of 1.5 weeks RWI (with a 1/3 discount off the fine for an early guilty plea)
Evidence
It may (or may not) be useful to see the evidence the police have against you before deciding whether to accept a COFP. Generally speaking, the police are under no obligation to disclose any such evidence to you before court proceedings (if you do not accept a COFP or otherwise are ineligible) begin.
However, the police/CTO/FPSU/whatever will often be slightly more helpful if you ask for "photos to help to identify the driver" before you respond to the s. 172 requirement. But they are not obliged to, and such requests do not necessarily extend the time to respond to the s. 172 requirement.
N.B. At no point do the police need to convince you that you committed the offence, or that no defence exists, they merely need to convince the court (if it goes to trial), and in most cases it would be up to the defence to produce evidence to prove otherwise or cast doubt or raise an issue.
Dashcams can be very useful, even if only to prove to yourself that the signage was in order.
Default Speed Limits and Signage
Speed limits are either default speed limits for the class of road and class of vehicle, or set by a Traffic Regulation Order (TRO). Signage is required at the start/change of all speed limits, and repeaters are required within non-default speed limits (limit set by TRO).
Where there is no compliant system of street lighting, inadequate or defective speed limit signage, on the route you took on that occasion, might constitute a defence. There is no requirement for signage to warn of speed cameras, and even less of a defence due to a lack of such signage.
For cars, motorcycles, compliant car-derived vans and compliant dual purpose vehicles, the default limits are as follows.
Motorways - 70mph
Ordinary roads (not motorways)
Compliant system of street lighting - 30mph
No street lighting, single carriageway - 60mph
No street lighting, dual carriageway - 70mph.
Commercial vehicles (other than compliant car derived vans, etc.) have default limits of 50 on unlit single carriageways and 60 on unlit dual carriageways.
Whilst, other than rolling roadworks and variable speed limits, non-default limits are set by the relevant Order, not the signage, you generally can't see the Order while driving, so to all intents and purposes, the limits should be considered to start/change at the terminal signs. If there are no signs indicating otherwise, the speed limit is the default speed limit for the class of road and vehicle.
For the hard of thinking, this means that if you are driving on a street-lit urban dual-carriageway that "looks like a 40 limit" (because back in the day, urban dual carriageways commonly had a 40mph limit), but the last speed limit sign you passed was not a 40 limit sign, and there are no 40 limit repeaters, it was a 30 limit, and that's why you are here.
RK
The Registered Keeper is the person who is registered with the DVLA as the keeper of the vehicle at the material time. Broadly speaking, if you do not have the V5C with your name and addreess on it, you are NOT the RK. If you have the V5C and it has your name and previous address on it, your previous address would generally constitute your "last known address", and any notice sent there would be deemed to have been properly served.
Exceptions to the requirement to serve a NIP
If you were stopped at the time of the alleged offence and warned that you might be prosecuted, there is no separate requirement for a NIP.
There is no requirement for a NIP for driving while using a mobile phone.
There is no requirement for a NIP if you were involved in an RTA, unless you weren't aware of the incident.
COFP
This is an offer to avoid criminal liability for the offence by accepting a fixed penalty and having your licence endorsed with penalty points. You do not have to accept a COFP, but will almost certainly be prosecuted for the underlying offence if you do not.
COFPs are routinely offered for speeds up to 34mph in a 20mph limit, 49mph in a 30mph limit and 25mph over the limit in higher limits. The offer is conditional upon not being liable to tot up to 12 points (or higher).
When accepting a COFP, you no longer need to send your licence off, but you do need to send off your "identification details" (which the police tend to call licence details) - name, date of birth and licence number. This is explained in the COFP, but requires that you actually read it and follow the instructions.
Dual Charging
If you were the driver (or were probably the driver), and did not name the driver in response to an s. 172 requirement, and are charged with both the motoring offence and the s. 172 offence, you can almost certainly do a deal with the prosecution to drop the s. 172 charge in exchange for pleading guilty to the underlying motoring offence. There is no formal procedure for this. Some courts give guidance with the SJPN, others will enact the deal if you state on the plea form that you will plead guilty to the motoring offence if the s. 172 is dropped, and in some cases you actually need to speak (politely) to the prosecutor on the day of the trial.
The stock advice, if looking to do the deal, is to plead not guilty to both charges unless/until the deal is accepted.
Speed Awareness Courses
These have no formal basis in law, but are invariably honoured as an out of court disposal.
SACs are offered in England and Wales for recorded speeds up to (and including) 10% +9mph over the speed limit. A course will not be offered if the same course was taken for an offence committed within the 3 years previous to the current offence. GEnerally, courses are not offered if the s. 172 response admitting to being the driver is processed more than 3 months after the offence, and the course generally has to be completed within 4 months of the offence. There is no right to be offered an SAC, although sometimes the CTOs are incompetent and forget to offer one - in which case try phoning them and asking them nicely. You would be surprised how helpful CTO tubbies can be when people speakin to them nicely - after they get over the shock, that it. As with all out of court disposals, no the court cannot sentence you to an SAC instead of points or ban.
Speed Thresholds
Under ACPO/NPCC guidelines, enforcement starts at 10% +2mph over the speed limit.
Courses (where applicable) are offered for up to 10% +9mph over the limit.
Fixed penalties are offered for up to 34 in a 20 limit, 49 in a 30 limit and 25mph over the limit in 40+ limits. Above those speeds, expect an SJPN (summons in old money).
The guidelines are not law, and were primarily introduced to allow for minor discrepancies with the speed measurement devices - so that courts could be certain that those accused of speeding were actually exceeding the speed limit.
Magistrates Sentencing Guidelines - Band A, B, C
The Magistrates' Sentencing Guidelines for speeding can be found here (https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/speeding-revised-2017/). N.B. If that link ever becomes out of date, try googling it!
The Magistrates Sentencing Guidelines apply solely to sentences imposed by the Magistrates' Court (if no out of court disposal is offered/accepted) - they have no bearing on whether the [alleged] offence would qualify for a Speed Awareness Course or Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty beyond that the limits for fixed penalties for all speed limits lie somewhere within Band B of the sentencing guidelines.
Timescales
Where a NIP is required, one must be served on the RK (or driver) within 14 days of the date of the alleged offence. The date of the offence is day 0. A notice sent by first class post is deemed to be served (delivered) 2 working days later (Mon-Fri exc bank hols), unless the contrary is proven.
There is no requirement to offer a COFP, and no timescale for issuing one but when one is issued, no criminal proceedings may be instigated during the suspended enforcement which is 28 days (or such longer as is never indicated on the notice) from the date of issue. That is also the timescale for accepting the COFP.
Information required by a postal s. 172 requirement must be given (served/delivered) to the police within 27 days from the date of service of the requirement (28 days beginning with the date of service) - although unless you're getting close to the 6 month timeout, it is rare to be prosecuted for providing the information a few days late.
Criminal proceedings (going to court) for most summary offences must be instigated within 6 months of the date of the offence. In most cases they are instigated when a Written Charge and SJPN are issued. This is usually done at the very end of the 6 months and sent out to the accused by post 2-3 weeks later with the bundle of initial evidence.
Posting Images
In most cases, we do not need to see the notice(s) you have received, and we are most definitely not here to read and summarise it for you because you are too important/busy/lazy to do so yourself.
However, if there is something relevant to your case, that cannot readily be effectively summarised or typed up, that you would like us to see, please do not try to attach it directly to the forum. There is a very limited facility for doing so, and it generally results in entitled, lazy and stupid people demonstrating that they didn't bother reading the "Read This First" post(s) by complaining that the facility doesn't work. There are a number of free third party image hosting sites that do work - see here (https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/posting-images/msg42933/#new)