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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Fowler1981 on January 25, 2024, 11:33:53 pm

Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council, code 35 not displaying a valid disc, St Sepulchre Street, Scarborough
Post by: cp8759 on February 11, 2024, 02:33:23 pm
Here you go:

Dear North Yorkshire Council,

I would like to submit informal representations RE: PCN YN07587327

When parking on 25 January 2024 I looked at the previous days scratch card which was dated 24/01/24 and without thinking I started to scratch off 24th on the new scratch card when I noticed on my watch it was now the 25th.
Because of the limited number of scratch cards available I didn’t want to waste one and therefore scratched off 25th, I now realise Is should not have done this.

While I appreciate it was my mistake and the scratchcard was invalid, there has been no loss to the council. I am a shop owner in Scarborough and I am entitled to a permit however I have been encountering significant difficulties in getting a permit because the council has still not issued me with a rates bill, which I need in order to obtain a permit, this has now been going on for six months.

While I appreciate none of this amounts to a defence in law, I trust that you will be able to exercise :P  discretion not to enforce on this occasion.

Yours faithfully,

In the meantime I would suggest you start gathering evidence of the difficulties there have been in getting the permit.

While it is an entirely separate matter to the PCN, it's obvious the permit needs to be sorted so I would contact the local councillor about this, contact details here: https://edemocracy.northyorks.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=142

The councillor cannot help with getting the PCN cancelled, so don't get her involved with that.
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council, code 35 not displaying a valid disc, St Sepulchre Street, Scarborough
Post by: Incandescent on February 08, 2024, 08:45:53 pm
I think you need to explain more about why your wife  started to scratch out the 24th. Just saying she is  "a retard" is not really all that persuasive. If you have a diagnosed mental condition then this should be stated along with evidence.
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council, code 35 not displaying a valid disc, St Sepulchre Street, Scarborough
Post by: Fowler1981 on February 08, 2024, 08:08:08 pm
Anybody got any input on this before I send it off when I get home from work later?
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council, code 35 not displaying a valid disc, St Sepulchre Street, Scarborough
Post by: Fowler1981 on February 08, 2024, 09:14:58 am
So she has typed out a representation which I have just copied and pasted below. Looks to me that it might want a bit of a tidy up. What do you think?


I would like to submit informal representations RE: PCN YN07587327

When parking 25/01/24 I looked at the previous days scratch card which was dated 24/01/24 and so as I’m a retard I started to scratch off 24th on the new scratch card when I noticed on my watch it said 25th.
Because of the limited number of scratch cards available I didn’t want to waste one and therefore scratched off 25th.
None of your evidence shows the scratch card had been used 24th- it wouldn’t as this was a mistake of mine.

I would like to add that I have tried on numerous occasions to get an A2 parking permit. As a Shop owner in Scarborough I am entitled to a permit however the council still, after 6 months, haven’t issued me with a rates bill to allow me to pay for the permit hence why I didn’t want to waste a scratch card.

Based on the information above I am appealing on your good will to overturn this ticket.
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council, code 35 not displaying a valid disc, St Sepulchre Street, Scarborough
Post by: Fowler1981 on February 07, 2024, 09:38:10 am
Yes, the V5C is up to date. She says she will make a plea on the grounds she's a bit of an idiot (not quite the word she used)  ;D

Shall I post it on here before sending?
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council, code 35 not displaying a valid disc, St Sepulchre Street, Scarborough
Post by: cp8759 on February 06, 2024, 11:27:20 pm
Well that's my theory out of the window, so a technical appeal it is.

Just make a plea for discretion for now, the council will inevitably reject but we have to go through the motions. At the notice to owner stage, we should be able to trip them into a procedural impropriety.

Does she have the V5C and is the address up to date?
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council, code 35 not displaying a valid disc, St Sepulchre Street, Scarborough
Post by: Fowler1981 on February 05, 2024, 09:00:35 am
Here is a photo from that drivers door

(https://i.imgur.com/CZ17pri.jpg)
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council, code 35 not displaying a valid disc, St Sepulchre Street, Scarborough
Post by: cp8759 on February 03, 2024, 06:54:11 pm
Quote from: Fowler1981 on February 02, 2024, 12:48:11 pm
So, I've just driven down that road and if you turn around on street view there is two more 'Disc Zone' signs before you get to the left turning and another one before the next left turning. So another 3 signs within a 20-30 second walk.
That's not how bay signs work: signs in another bay don't count, as different bays can have different restrictions. There must be a sign for relevant bay, visible from where you are when you get out of the car. If a sign is within sight you have to go up to it to read it, but if it isn't visible at all you're not required to walk up and down the street looking for signs.

Could you get us a photo from here (https://maps.app.goo.gl/vWsazp5wzdEc3ELC9), but as if you were standing by the driver's side door of the black car seen on google street view?

If as I suspect the sign for the bay is wholly out of sight, then there's a case to be made on the signage and I think we can get the council to commit a procedural impropriety as well.

As for the permit, that was a bit silly of her but it is what it is, so we'll have to go with a technical appeal instead.
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council, code 35 not displaying a valid disc, St Sepulchre Street, Scarborough
Post by: Fowler1981 on February 02, 2024, 12:48:11 pm
So, I've just driven down that road and if you turn around on street view there is two more 'Disc Zone' signs before you get to the left turning and another one before the next left turning. So another 3 signs within a 20-30 second walk.

As with the permit, she has said she didn't want to waste one so chanced that one would still be ok.
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council, code 35 not displaying a valid disc, St Sepulchre Street, Scarborough
Post by: cp8759 on February 02, 2024, 09:16:22 am
Well we can see the signs on google street view, but by all means you can check if anything has changed.

One thing worth asking her is why didn't she just get another permit? Was it her last one?
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council, code 35 not displaying a valid disc, St Sepulchre Street, Scarborough
Post by: Fowler1981 on February 02, 2024, 05:23:49 am
Yeah, that silver car is hers and she is the registered keeper. Do you want me to pop there today, see if there are any other signs nearby?
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council, code 35 not displaying a valid disc, St Sepulchre Street, Scarborough
Post by: cp8759 on February 02, 2024, 12:18:55 am
@Fowler1981 I can see at least two or three ways to beat this one. I take she was parked here? https://maps.app.goo.gl/Xir2h47c553eBQ5o6

I don't think the signage is adequate as it appears to be out of sight behind a corner:

(https://i.imgur.com/pILiRhe.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/dM8b1gq.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Tln9XK7.jpeg)

Who's the registered keeper of the car?
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council, code 35 not displaying a valid disc, St Sepulchre Street, Scarborough
Post by: Incandescent on January 26, 2024, 10:44:20 am
Quote from: Fowler1981 on January 26, 2024, 10:15:05 am
The 24th being scratched was kind of deliberate. I asked her about that and she said she just wasn't thinking, she just saw 24 on the previous days card and just started scratching it off before noticing 25 on her watch.

I've noticed on a lot of threads on here the wording on the PCN is very often wrong. That's not the case here then?
Not as far as I can see, no. We don't often see PCNs from North York council, but their PCN used by CEOs looks OK.  Often errors are made in the small print, but here these look OK.
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council, code 35 not displaying a valid disc, St Sepulchre Street, Scarborough
Post by: Fowler1981 on January 26, 2024, 10:15:05 am
The 24th being scratched was kind of deliberate. I asked her about that and she said she just wasn't thinking, she just saw 24 on the previous days card and just started scratching it off before noticing 25 on her watch.

I've noticed on a lot of threads on here the wording on the PCN is very often wrong. That's not the case here then?
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council, code 35 not displaying a valid disc, St Sepulchre Street, Scarborough
Post by: Incandescent on January 26, 2024, 01:02:53 am
24th looks as if it was deliberately scratched, so why was this, an error ?  Strictly speaking another card should have been used. Of course, go ahead and submit reps if this is the error, but they can refuse them and I don't think you'd win at adjudication. The PCN looks kosher.
Title: North Yorkshire Council, code 35 not displaying a valid disc, St Sepulchre Street, Scarborough
Post by: Fowler1981 on January 25, 2024, 11:33:53 pm
Hi everyone. The girlfriend parked with a residents scratch card on the dashboard scratching off the correct date (25th) and with the 24th also partly scratched. The contravention given is 'Parked in a disc parking place without clearly displaying a valid disc' and it is Code 35.

This is the GSV link:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/FqkypasaJxhCmqS8A

Front of the PCN:
(https://i.imgur.com/QLUJcH1.jpg)

Back of the PCN:
(https://i.imgur.com/SWtNuNO.jpg)

Scratchcard:
(https://i.imgur.com/W6sZwwS.jpg)


Do we have a way of fighting this one please?