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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Donmalaga_FTLA on June 30, 2023, 11:55:34 am

Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: Donmalaga_FTLA on October 29, 2023, 11:32:40 am
I'd just like to say a big "Thank You" for the help on this matter and a good result.  Best Wishes.

Quote from: cp8759 on October 29, 2023, 12:58:50 am
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=180Q_v05aIDp7qqd1rLmzMf-cfst55vfO).
Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: cp8759 on October 29, 2023, 12:58:50 am
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=180Q_v05aIDp7qqd1rLmzMf-cfst55vfO).
Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: H C Andersen on September 13, 2023, 01:14:39 pm


A review of the thread shows that you were parked on a SYL while in force, notice of the restriction being conveyed by a CPZ sign at the entrance to the road.

As I understand it, this is not disputed.

The authority have to show that the indicated restriction was underpinned by a lawful restriction at the time the PCN was issued. Whether they intended to remove it, had made preparations to remove it or had even published notice of their intention to remove it goes to mitigation IMO which the adjudicator cannot consider. Similarly, the adjudicator is not empowered to allow an appeal because they think there was no traffic management reason for the line being in place.

So, was there a lawful restriction in place at the time?

From the order which was obtained by cp the answer is yes.

This is where your speculation comes into play.

The facts here are that shortly after the date in question the line was removed and replaced by parking place markings which is consistent with the one of the conditions of planning consent granted in respect of an application to develop the adjacent property which had benefited from a dropped footway which had recently been removed. Another fact appears to be that the council have been unable to produce a copy of the order modifying the one which was in effect on the day and which you contravened.

The speculation surrounds whether what's there now is actually unlawful, because it's not underpinned by a traffic order(no evidence that the previous order has been amended) or whether it is lawful in which case when did the amendment take effect.....before the date of the contravention perhaps?

But it is speculation.

IMO, more chance of trying to squeeze a Do Not Contest from the council.
Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: cp8759 on September 13, 2023, 12:07:40 am
I'll drop you a PM.
Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: Donmalaga_FTLA on September 12, 2023, 10:01:51 am
Hi, how does that work?
Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: cp8759 on September 09, 2023, 12:11:57 am
Well, I cannot guarantee the outcome, but I'm happy to represent you at the tribunal if you want to carry on.
Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: Donmalaga_FTLA on September 05, 2023, 08:48:31 pm
Evening,

Another rejection from Brent, so I guess the final hurdle?



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: cp8759 on August 26, 2023, 06:09:57 pm
Quote from: Donmalaga_FTLA on August 20, 2023, 05:31:28 am
Further to your comment
"unless the council can produce the amending traffic order in evidence (which they can't cos it doesn't exist), they cannot prove that it wasn't already a designated parking place when the ticket was issued"

The ticket was issued with the yellow line in situ, although the drop kerb was raised months prior, so confused with the above statement.
How does the tribunal know that the order to turn it from a waiting restriction into a parking place wasn't enacted prior to the alleged contravention? With no order in evidence, it doesn't. You're entitled to put the authority to proof on this point.

It would hardly be unprecedented for the authority to make a traffic order slightly before or slightly after the contractor goes round to change the road markings, we've seen this quite a few times.
Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: Donmalaga_FTLA on August 20, 2023, 05:31:28 am
Further to your comment
"unless the council can produce the amending traffic order in evidence (which they can't cos it doesn't exist), they cannot prove that it wasn't already a designated parking place when the ticket was issued"

The ticket was issued with the yellow line in situ, although the drop kerb was raised months prior, so confused with the above statement.
Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: cp8759 on August 15, 2023, 11:39:51 pm
Quote from: Donmalaga_FTLA on August 14, 2023, 06:08:39 am
Reads like we couldn't be bothered to update our records....!
More like an example of illegality. If legally it's a waiting restriction, it is unlawful for the council to paint a parking bay there.

Turning that on its head however, you could argue that unless the council can produce the amending traffic order in evidence (which they can't cos it doesn't exist), they cannot prove that it wasn't already a designated parking place when the ticket was issued.
Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: Donmalaga_FTLA on August 14, 2023, 06:08:39 am
Reads like we couldn't be bothered to update our records....!
Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: cp8759 on August 11, 2023, 10:41:16 am
Well I wasn't expecting that:

(https://i.imgur.com/PReXlT6.png)
Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: cp8759 on July 23, 2023, 09:43:20 pm
I wouldn't bother, it's unlikely the person responding will have a clue. I'd keep that in reserve for the tribunal.
Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: Donmalaga_FTLA on July 22, 2023, 06:55:32 am
Hi,

Thanks for the above - not receiving email updates when this post is updated, so hence the late reply.

Is it worth throwing in a line that the TMO should have been amended when the council accepted the job to raise the kerb earlier in January 2023?

Thanks
Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: cp8759 on July 16, 2023, 01:09:29 pm
I've had to re-request the amending order in question, as nothing they have sent us justified the removal of the single yellow line and the installation of the bay.

In the meantime this is a representation you can send (attach a copy of this (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1djdDE50MoC_gN45MYxunLYVK5bD7qMyk/view)):

Dear London Borough of Brent,

My vehicle was issued a penalty charge for being parked on a single yellow line outside number 16 Holland Road, the purpose of that yellow line was to protect the drive to that property. On the day in question, the drive had already been removed and the single yellow line was effectively redundant. I note the council has since removed the single yellow line and replaced it with a parking bay, see the attached image.

It is therefore apparent that the yellow line had served its purpose, and enforcement of the penalty charge would serve no traffic management purpose in this instance.

I would therefore ask you to rescind the charge on this occasion.

Yours faithfully,

The council will re-offer the discount as long as they receive the representation by 26 July, and we should have the relevant amending order before you get a response.
Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: Donmalaga_FTLA on July 14, 2023, 02:29:34 pm
NTO

page 1 - https://imgur.com/YaONTYg
page 2 - https://imgur.com/hiVdynl
page 3 - https://imgur.com/nqvgUxs
Page 4 - https://imgur.com/OVFIszj

Thanks
Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: cp8759 on July 14, 2023, 02:02:37 pm
Please post up the NTO, all sides of all pages.

Also being abroad should make no difference as long as you have internet access.
Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: Donmalaga_FTLA on July 14, 2023, 01:27:59 pm
Good day to you all.

OK, NTO has now been received.

Still chasing vehicle crossing to get an updated Traffic Management Order, but not getting anywhere with them so far.

I have 28 days to respond but will not be in the country, so have 11 days to send anything back!!

Title: Re: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer
Post by: cp8759 on June 30, 2023, 03:54:26 pm
They did send back a lot of stuff:

These appear to be irrelevant (but others may want to check):
The Brent (Waiting and Loading Restriction) (Amendment No. 183) Order 2004 (https://bit.ly/3ISmYFx)
The Brent (Parking Places) (Wembley Stadium Area) (No. 1) Order 2019 (https://bit.ly/3C56zd8)
The Brent (Parking Places) (Zone KL) (No. 1) Order 2019 (https://bit.ly/43fvuXh)
The Brent (Parking Places) (Zone HW) (No. 1) Order 2019 (https://bit.ly/3MKZzXX)
The Brent (Parking Places) (Zone HW) (No. 1) Order 2023 (https://bit.ly/43eovOt)

This seems to be the order we are interested in:
The Brent (Waiting and Loading Restriction) (Amendment No. 349) Order 2010 (https://bit.ly/3C6W7St) (the key order).

The relevant entry seems to be at 954(с)(iv):

between a point 10.00 metres north-west of north-western kerb-line of All Soul's Avenue and a point 5.00 metres south-east of the south-eastern kerb-line of Lushington Road;

It seems a bit off as this overlaps a number of parking bays at this location.

Also here's The Brent (Waiting and Loading Restriction) Order 1979 (https://bit.ly/3OLPSeg)

I'll check over everything again once the NTO comes through.
Title: BRENT - Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescibed hours - Holland Road - Single Yellow but No longer a dr
Post by: Donmalaga_FTLA on June 30, 2023, 11:55:34 am
Migrating over from PePiPoo... So waiting for NTO still... Thanks for the invite too.

But original post as follows http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149584



PCN: https://imgur.com/a/oMPiCt3