Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: confused-z on January 13, 2024, 11:31:42 am
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Hi cp8759, I got itchy feet, and with other things going on in my life then I didn't want to go through the hassle of taking this to court
There is no court for PCNs ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Hi cp8759, I got itchy feet, and with other things going on in my life then I didn't want to go through the hassle of taking this to court so I just ended up paying the discounted price. So thank you for all the help but I don't think there is anything further needed for this post.
Thanks again.
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The OP does not have to prove the signs are in place that is for the council. I would put them to proof that they were
Exactly, further to that I'm going to request the council records in any event.
@confused-z in the meantime please give us the PCN number and the number plate.
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It is common and almost universal practice for an authority to re-offer the discount even after unsuccessful reps at the NTO stage..and this is the stage with the higher likelihood of material authority procedural c**k-ups.
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So should the driver just wait till they receive the NTO? As the driver already appealed, then I thought this indicates the driver received the PCN physically and therefore the discounted rate will no longer apply if the driver waits for the NTO as it will pass the 14 days discount period.
The driver is just worried that they will have to pay the full amount as it seems the grounds to appeal this PCN is quite low, so it would be sensible to just pay the discounted amount and be done with this PCN?
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The driver is the registered keeper on the vehicle and their details are up to date on the DVLA.
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Only the driver knows whether they did or did not see these signs on their entrance and whether, if not, this was due to them not being there or the driver's inattention.
The starting point is that we don't know and neither would an adjudicator.
But we're not there yet, there's the NTO stage to manage before the keeper has to make a double or quits decision with adjudication.
Who is the registered keeper and are their DVLA details current?
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Thanks for the reply. So should I take it that the driver doesn't have much grounds for appeal and should just pay the reduced penalty?
Thanks again for all your help thus far.
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The driver says '..during their journey they did not see any[applicable] signs..'.
The authority say 'There are road signs on display at the entrance and exit (?) of the Controlled Parking Zone'
We don't know whether 'did not see' = they weren't there.
I understand the comment about 'putting the authority to strict proof' but IMO this isn't the legal test, it's balance of probability that adequate signage was in place.
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Hello Team,
So the driver sent the following response to the Council when appealing this PCN.
(https://i.imgur.com/tF0lIkf.png)
And the Council sent back the following response.
(https://i.imgur.com/sfkzrRQ.png)
How should the driver proceed?
Thank you
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The OP does not have to prove the signs are in place that is for the council. I would put them to proof that they were
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Absent any other suggestions, try this
Penalty Charge Notice No. AB 123456
dated 05/01/24
Reg Mark ABC123
Dear Sirs,
I wish to challenge the above PCN on the grounds that the wording of the PCN does not conform to the statutory Regulations, which is a Procedural Impropriety, and this PCN should therefore be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
confused-z
Dated 18th January, 2024
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They will probably refuse, and in refusing re-offer the discount.
But it gives you more time to explore every possible option.
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If no-one else comes in with advice, I'd put in a simple challenge (to preserve the discount) based on Hippocrates post reply#3, that the tmescales for paying/challenging do not match the requirements of the legislation..
Is there some response template the forum has that articulates this particular appeal which the driver could just copy/modify and paste when responding to the council?
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Thanks John and Incandescent, seems the driver was just not paying attention, especially if they passed 2 signs mentioning when the next event day occurred. Do you think the driver could appeal saying that the sign did not mention that an event was occurring on the 5th Jan and hope the Council don't have any evidence that does support a valid sign was in-place?
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The event day restriction zones starts from when you leave Leeside Road at the roundabout and go to any of the 3 exit roads, such as Dysons Road which the driver did. Looking at Google Maps Street View, there does not seem to be any signs mentioning when the next event day is at this roundabout junction so is it worth driving down there again to get some pictures to see what is what in terms of signs that should be there?
NO.....
Having turned right off Meridian Way the driver entered the Haringey Event Day Zone
https://new.haringey.gov.uk/parking/cpzs/map-haringey-controlled-parking-zones-cpzs
here
https://maps.app.goo.gl/M7jMcqjhxPWbVEzB6
This zone includes the whole roundabout where he turned right onto Dysons Road and ends at the junction of Dysons Road with Willoughby Lane, here
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EdeEvPEXnrTZAi659
entering the Enfield EDZ 100 yards further on,
https://www.enfield.gov.uk/services/parking/tottenham-hotspur-stadium-controlled-parking-zone-cpz
here
https://maps.app.goo.gl/G1yPmHKKNTvHcZTq5
So the driver passed two signs alerting him to ED restrictions IF the signs were correctly set.
If no-one else comes in with advice, I'd put in a simple challenge (to preserve the discount) based on Hippocrates post reply#3, that the tmescales for paying/challenging do not match the requirements of the legislation..
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but I don't recall seeing any sign's noting a event day when I entered the area with the event day parking restrictions.
Here is the sign as per GSV March 2022
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZgQptLQdYrT53TeY9
So unless there was no even date on that sign, you look bang-to-rights, I'm afraid.
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Sorry if I sound like I'm being pushy, but I'm just conscious that the 14 day timeframe to pay or appeal whilst keeping the 50% discounted fee is due by tomorrow and I'm not clear on if there is any grounds to appeal for this particular PCN. Please let me know what I can do as the PCN seems correctly worded but I don't recall seeing any sign's noting a event day when I entered the area with the event day parking restrictions.
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For ease, here is the PCN again in the correct format for the forum.
(https://i.imgur.com/fTNbtC9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/iJde8Q4.jpg)
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As per Mr Mustard's knowledge and experience, the PCN contains a fatal procedural impropriety. 2230448785
The PCN itself contains a procedural error that invalidates it. Schedule 2 paragraph 2 states
(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,
However, the PCN I received states that payment is due within 28 days from the date of service, not the date of the alleged contravention. This discrepancy constitutes a procedural impropriety that renders the PCN invalid.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2
Sorry for my stupidity but I didn't understand this response fully. On the PCN that the driver received, the wording seems to match like for like to Schedule 2 of the legislation that was provided so I can't see the error that makes this PCN invalid. Am I not seeing this correctly? Sorry again if I'm being thick.
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Yes, but the next event day is supposed to be displayed on the entry to th e zone where event day restrictions are imposed. So you need to find out where the zone boundaries are, and get a photo of the sign. They have a legal duty to display the event days on the zone entry signs. They cannot say "it's all on our website". If that is what they are saying you should take them to London Tribunals where you will win.
We don't know which direction the OP approached Raynham Avenue from, but GSV shows zone entry signs on both sides of Fore Street at its junction with the A406, complete with "Next event day" plate: https://maps.app.goo.gl/skRRtk2zSmL1EFmV8 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/skRRtk2zSmL1EFmV8)
Approaching from the Tottenham direction, there are signs on both sides of the road at the boundary with LB of Haringey:
And approaching from the Westbound North Circular Road and using a series of back streets: [url=https://maps.app.goo.gl/WZTxkLgVFxe5JUKMA]https://maps.app.goo.gl/WZTxkLgVFxe5JUKMA (https://maps.app.goo.gl/uYmG3RYGQU6fuNBf6[/url)
I'm only aware of one occasion where they forgot to update a couple of the signs, resulting in me getting a PCN. Fortunately they cancelled at the informal reps stage upon being presented with the evidence.
So the driver went around the back from Tesco Lea Valley to Raynham Avenue. The exact path is as follows:
(https://i.imgur.com/CpSyOdz.png)
https://imgur.com/a/EKQNf0O
The event day restriction zones starts from when you leave Leeside Road at the roundabout and go to any of the 3 exit roads, such as Dysons Road which the driver did. Looking at Google Maps Street View, there does not seem to be any signs mentioning when the next event day is at this roundabout junction so is it worth driving down there again to get some pictures to see what is what in terms of signs that should be there?
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OP: do you realise the importance of the information I provided re the PCN?
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Yes, but the next event day is supposed to be displayed on the entry to th e zone where event day restrictions are imposed. So you need to find out where the zone boundaries are, and get a photo of the sign. They have a legal duty to display the event days on the zone entry signs. They cannot say "it's all on our website". If that is what they are saying you should take them to London Tribunals where you will win.
We don't know which direction the OP approached Raynham Avenue from, but GSV shows zone entry signs on both sides of Fore Street at its junction with the A406, complete with "Next event day" plate: https://maps.app.goo.gl/skRRtk2zSmL1EFmV8 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/skRRtk2zSmL1EFmV8)
Approaching from the Tottenham direction, there are signs on both sides of the road at the boundary with LB of Haringey:
And approaching from the Westbound North Circular Road and using a series of back streets: [URL=https://maps.app.goo.gl/WZTxkLgVFxe5JUKMA]https://maps.app.goo.gl/WZTxkLgVFxe5JUKMA (https://maps.app.goo.gl/uYmG3RYGQU6fuNBf6[/url)
I'm only aware of one occasion where they forgot to update a couple of the signs, resulting in me getting a PCN. Fortunately they cancelled at the informal reps stage upon being presented with the evidence.
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As per Mr Mustard's knowledge and experience, the PCN contains a fatal procedural impropriety. 2230448785
The PCN itself contains a procedural error that invalidates it. Schedule 2 paragraph 2 states
(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,
However, the PCN I received states that payment is due within 28 days from the date of service, not the date of the alleged contravention. This discrepancy constitutes a procedural impropriety that renders the PCN invalid.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2
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Not sure if the images are coming through, but here is a link to the images.
Parking Restriction signs:
https://imgur.com/a/zNE5PbD
PCN:
https://imgur.com/a/vPKX3PU
Yes, but the next event day is supposed to be displayed on the entry to th e zone where event day restrictions are imposed. So you need to find out where the zone boundaries are, and get a photo of the sign. They have a legal duty to display the event days on the zone entry signs. They cannot say "it's all on our website". If that is what they are saying you should take them to London Tribunals where you will win.
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Not sure if the images are coming through, but here is a link to the images.
Parking Restriction signs:
https://imgur.com/a/zNE5PbD
PCN:
https://imgur.com/a/vPKX3PU
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Dear Forum,
A driver regularly attends the Edmonton Mosque on Friday's for the Muslim Friday Prayers. For other Muslim Prayers, the driver usually attends the local Mosque so only attends the Edmonton Mosque for the larger prayer events. Around the Edmonton Mosque, the roads have a parking restriction only on event days as the area is near the Tottenham Football Stadium where the event days are when there are football matches or other events (like NFL or music concerts) held in this stadium. During an event day, the parking restrictions are from 12pm till 9pm.
Usually there is no event days on a Friday, so when the driver attends the Edmonton Mosque, they usually park in the restricted area without any worry. There are no signs around the area to indicate when an event day is occurring so the driver must take their own initiative to go on the internet to check if there is an event at the stadium. In contrast to the roads near the Arsenal Stadium which also have similar parking restrictions, when there is an event at the Arsenal Stadium, there is a sign near the parking restriction sign to say that 'Today is an event day' so drivers don't need to figure out by themselves if the restrictions are being enforced on that day or not.
On the 5th Jan 2024, a driver parked on Raynham Avenue, N18, at 1pm to attend the Edmonton Mosque for the Friday prayers. The driver was unaware that there was a football match due at Tottenham Stadium later that evening (at 8pm, so 7 hours later). When the driver returned from the Friday Prayers the driver found a PCN on the windshield of the vehicle. Is there any chance of successfully appealing this PCN from the information provided thus far?
The PCN is as follows:
<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/vPKX3PU" data-context="false" ><a href="//imgur.com/a/vPKX3PU">Enfield PCN Front</a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
From Google Maps, here is a street view with the parking restriction sign.
<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/zNE5PbD" data-context="false" ><a href="//imgur.com/a/zNE5PbD"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>