Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: smc on June 29, 2023, 06:03:16 pm
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Massive thank you to cp8759 for your work towards the appeal and representation.
We wouldn't have been able to navigate the process without your help!
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Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=14CwDmqKYLw-b-fvuPhqxTuxdsnJ3auo9).
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I'll drop you a pm.
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Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
Thank you for offering, this is very kind and I would appreciate that a lot.
I am writing the appeal text now based on the previous submissions. Is this draft below suitable?
I challenge liability for PCN HR51148352 due to a lack of zone repeater signs. At first I had no idea why I received a PCN, but having looked into matters I now understand I was parked within the Harrow on the Hill Permit Parking Area.
I entered the zone via Grove Hill junction with Peterborough Road, which is quite a busy junction with a zebra crossing 20 metres ahead. While I now understand there are Permit Parking Area signs at this junction on Peterborough Road, the visibility of these signs is poor. The near-side sign not visible due to the junction angle, and the off-side sign part obscured at the junction, and then visible for only a very short distance whilst approaching a zebra crossing. See attached image.
The PPA itself is large, and I did not pass any repeater signs within the zone. By the time I came to a stop I had driven down the High Street and turned into West Road; I had travelled a quarter of a kilometre from the entrance of the zone and was on a much smaller road with considerably less traffic. I observed my surroundings and did not see any indication of any parking restrictions (either at the start of West Road, or along the road side, or in the form of yellow lines). I have photos demonstrating that there is no signage within sight of my parked car.
A Permit Parking Area is different to a Controlled Parking Zone because, unlike a CPZ, the layout of a PPA does not include any bays or markings to alert a motorist to the restrictions. While previous tribunal decisions are not binding they can be persuasive and I note the significant parallels with Shetal Patel vs London Borough of Harrow (PCN HR51100560, Case 2220650316, 27 Oct 2022) and also Stephanie Martin v Knowsley Metropolitan Borough Council (KI00006-1905, 21 June 2019), where in both cases the adjudicator found that in a large PPA covering several streets, the zone entrance signs alone are not adequate to support the restriction.
I therefore contest that the alleged contravention did not occur.
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Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
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The next stage is to register an appeal at London Tribunals. They have not re-offered the discount, so it is a no-brainer to take them to LT, as the penalty remains the same and there are no additional costs. As far as I can see they have not considered your reps properly, or even not at all. You have a good case, so go for it.
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Hello again. The reply is in today, a rejection, in a very similar wording to the previous letter.
Unfortunately, this no longer appears to be the case:
Well the starting point is that, as long as you challenge the Notice to Owner within 14 days, the council will re-offer the discount (to discourage you from appealing to the tribunal), so you might as well carry on.
So the full £110 cost is payable now. :(
On the other hand this means there is nothing to lose by appealing to tribunal so this is now the obvious choice, so I would appreciate guidance please.
Key part of letter (pages 1 & 2) below:
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
I can appeal online again it looks like, so the question is what I should write?
For context....
I do think the signage where I entered the zone is particularly poor. From street view, one sign is not at all visible (immediately opposite junction) and the sign on the far side of the road is partly obscured by the Give Way sign at the junction, then visible only briefly when attention is on the zebra crossing (see the signs ringed in red below). I did not see any repeater signs between here and where I parked.
[attachimg=3]
Thank you for the guidance so far!
Here the full letter received:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BdswQjcIgrDwODclSAhdAzIVjcVpMVzP/view (page 1 - Rejection of Representations)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1P_ibAZeQ7fuRANuOCjqunN_ooeTnUwHO/view (page 2 - Rejection of Representations)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1flJCGndgNcVQbQr06NCWb6y1khKk7eph/view (page 3 - Your right to appeal information)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QzfduDn2aDteEK8ZHB8Pa5Sij69f8AKh/view (page 4 - Your right to appeal information)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G6VQFTGDSMUnpcxEYuwPf5gHgNHXLtGX/view (page 5 - Notice of Appeal form)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PQGPhj113Rh1FRXzDoLAVOSlrUJlbtfG/view (page 6 - Notice of Appeal form)
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Here's the confirmation page screenshot.
[attachimg=1]
[attachment deleted by admin]
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It's almost like you've done this before!
Maybe once or twice :)
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It's almost like you've done this before!
Sorry, I missed that!! Thank you :)
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This 'Notice to Owner' paper form doesn't seem to have an option for an online appeal, only a paper form to be returned to Harrow Council, PO Box 951, Civic Centre, Harrow, HA1 2FY.
I beg to differ:
(https://i.imgur.com/x7dgK9v.jpg)
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Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean? I initially appealed online and got the rejection (see initial post in this thread).
This 'Notice to Owner' paper form doesn't seem to have an option for an online appeal, only a paper form to be returned to Harrow Council, PO Box 951, Civic Centre, Harrow, HA1 2FY.
This is the paperwork I've received this week:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y4ncvE2L7Yk8txxWNx99yH3wXExjP2GY/view Page 1
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lbNrBIvk-pikrBeUSr6P5EPZKIWOBitc/view Page 2
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_aGxYesSFKQ1t4_30Fgt_72ul0ZqFjbo/view Page 3
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tFeTJQtyNdxtp7cHgnDUH7ZZxyaVXGs2/view Page 4
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Yes that's fine. Remember to grab a screenshot of the confirmation screen.
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Ok, thanks. The form provided has a half-page set of lines for hand writing. Would it be acceptable to print my representation and attach it or is it better to write it into the form?
How does this draft look? A shorter version of my original.
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I challenge liability for PCN HR51148352 due to a lack of zone repeater signs. At first I had no idea why I received a PCN, but having looked into matters online I now understand I was parked within the Harrow on the Hill Permit Parking Area.
While I understand there is a Permit Parking Area sign at the junction of Grove Hill and Peterborough Road where I entered the zone, the zone is quite large and I did not pass any repeater signs within the zone. I travelled a quarter of a kilometre from the entrance of the zone and parked on a much smaller road with considerably less traffic. I observed my surroundings and did not see any indication of any parking restrictions (either at the top of West Road, or along the road side, or in the form of yellow lines). There were other cars parked on the same road not exhibiting permits, suggesting that, at the time of parking, I was not alone in my assumption that this was a valid street on which to park. I have photos demonstrating that there is no signage within sight of my parked car.
A Permit Parking Area is different to a Controlled Parking Zone because, unlike a CPZ, the layout of a PPA does not include any bays or markings to alert a motorist to the restrictions. While previous tribunal decisions are not binding they can be persuasive and I note the significant parallels with Shetal Patel vs London Borough of Harrow (PCN HR51100560, Case 2220650316, 27 Oct 2022) and also Stephanie Martin v Knowsley Metropolitan Borough Council (KI00006-1905, 21 June 2019), where in both cases the adjudicator found that in a large PPA covering several streets, the zone entrance signs alone are not adequate to support the restriction.
I therefore contest that the alleged contravention did not occur.
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To be honest I would make the same representation again, without mentioning the specific route you took. Every adjudicator I've ever taken this zone to has said that the size of the zone and the adequacy of the signage are ridiculous.
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Hello again,
I've now received the Notice to Owner form in the post. Images below:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y4ncvE2L7Yk8txxWNx99yH3wXExjP2GY/view Page 1
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lbNrBIvk-pikrBeUSr6P5EPZKIWOBitc/view Page 2
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_aGxYesSFKQ1t4_30Fgt_72ul0ZqFjbo/view Page 3
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tFeTJQtyNdxtp7cHgnDUH7ZZxyaVXGs2/view Page 4
I'd appreciate some guidance please in writing the response to this?
Thank you so much in advance
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Ok. Thank you in advance :)
I will reply back here with images when the notice arrives in the post
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Would that involve just submitting a similar letter to my previous one?
Well yes, but we'll help you draft something more detailed, don't try doing this without our help.
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Ah, that permit is a red herring. It was used earlier in the week when I'd been working at Harrow School, and is for their staff parking. I just hadn't removed it from the dashboard yet (I'd been on-site on and off at the school for several days). It certainly has no validity on public roads.
My parking on West Street was entirely in good faith on the basis I hadn't seen the zone entry signs (see junction Street View in previous post), and I could see no reason not to park on West Road (no signs in sight/no signs at top of road/no lines).
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Thank you for the information on the Notice To Owner. The council have again offered the reduced rate for 14 days in their letter rejecting my online appeal. If they will do the same again after I challenge that I'll go ahead. Would that involve just submitting a similar letter to my previous one?
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Well the starting point is that, as long as you challenge the Notice to Owner within 14 days, the council will re-offer the discount (to discourage you from appealing to the tribunal), so you might as well carry on.
However I'm intrigued by this permit:
(https://i.imgur.com/8nrakXk.jpg)
What can you tell us about it? Does it have any terms and conditions? surely if you displayed it you must have thought it was valid?
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Well, you could appeal at London Tribunals on poor signage, as turning right as you did, there is only one sign visible and that is on the right out of your line of site for driving carefully. It could also be obscured by a high-sided vehicle.
The down side is you would have to risk the full PCN penalty, the discount option is lost at adjudication. So see what the others say, but don't miss any deadlines.
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Thanks for your reply.
The route taken into the zone was from here, turning right: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5737255,-0.336411,3a,75y,173.63h,85.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOMhV-QwD4gnUwF2Pb9xzDA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu
There is one sign immediately on the right of the road next to the zebra crossing. The sign on the left of the road cannot be seen as it's opposite the junction and facing for traffic arriving from the left.
Given the junction/crossing and just one side on the right-side of road at this point, I didn't notice I was entering the zone!
And yes -- on West Street where I parked, there were no signs until you got ~80m or so further down the down (which I hadn't) where there is a sign.
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Ok, so you've read a previous thread on this zone on the Pepipoo forum. Can you remember what route you took to park where you did ?
If you turn into West Street from the A312 Bessborough Road there are two prominent parking signs.
https://goo.gl/maps/idkJgJ7LHoUtDNhy9
Also turning in from A4005 London Road
https://goo.gl/maps/hEaK9jxGGJVdCj6f7
Also there are signs once you're in the zone at marked parking bays, but not, I think, at places where there are no bays, or on single yellow lines, so you could be fooled.
https://goo.gl/maps/Jy79sF9aHKvKi3wr8
Whether the lack of repeaters is a win at London Tribunals is a moot point. Certainly a win is not guaranteed.
The other aspect which can win at adjudication is a fatal error in the PCN itself. So please post up the back of the PCN so an assessment can be made. The front of the PCN looks OK. The text on the back probably is OK, but you never can tell !
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Hello,
I received a parking ticket from Harrow Council on 1 June.
Parking ticket: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QC1S6rpYpJUGIaqs-QqYKwoxuT_LDeMX/view
I had inadvertently parked with a parking permit area, which I only worked this out after looking online and finding this useful thread: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=144725.
I appealed on the Harrow Council website with the following letter: https://drive.google.com/file/d/12MpCi3RvqnZeiHxtqs_TYAIh4tzTrN8s/view
And today (although dated a week ago!) received their reply letter declining this.
Page 1: https://drive.google.com/file/d/12465sY9cUwcSYaH_odDhq2AOS8I38-Pc/view
Page 2: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iT1OTui6UKSBUNfwDZWedHVhQzzWVv7f/view
This means I now have to decide whether to pay the reduced fine within 7 days, or formally challenge this. I'm not really sure what the latter means in practice and what it would involve??!
I'd like some guidance on whether I have a case or not, and if so what I should do?
Thank you!