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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Felics on January 11, 2024, 12:18:54 pm

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN: Entering and stopping in a Box Junction, High Road Goodmayes 31j
Post by: Hippocrates on February 15, 2024, 11:09:03 am
My absolute pleasure and well done for staying the course and not joining The Mugged Club!
Title: Re: Redbridge PCN: Entering and stopping in a Box Junction, High Road Goodmayes 31j
Post by: Felics on February 15, 2024, 10:42:28 am
For future reference, the borough did not challenge.

Final letter below.

(https://i.imgur.com/j8wrHrB.png)

Thanks to Hippocrates for all the help!
Title: Re: Redbridge PCN: Entering and stopping in a Box Junction, High Road Goodmayes 31j
Post by: Hippocrates on February 14, 2024, 09:14:53 pm
Isn't is strange that, whenever I have a siesta, the cases seem to be won in mea absentia!

This one too: 

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/being-in-a-bus-lane-highgate-road-camden/

From now on, I am taking many siestas.  :o
Title: Re: Redbridge PCN: Entering and stopping in a Box Junction, High Road Goodmayes 31j
Post by: Hippocrates on February 05, 2024, 01:58:04 pm
Game on.
Title: Re: Redbridge PCN: Entering and stopping in a Box Junction, High Road Goodmayes 31j
Post by: Felics on January 12, 2024, 09:15:20 pm
If you want to go to the tribunal, I am happy to represent you.

Meanwhile:

1.  Contravention did not occur
2.  I rely upon my formal representations and will make further submissions when I receive the council's evidence pack.
3.  Personal hearing:  you can attend by phone, representative in person.
4.  Contact by e mail.

PM me if you wish to take up the offer.

Thats very kind. I have sent you a PM.
Title: Re: Redbridge PCN: Entering and stopping in a Box Junction, High Road Goodmayes 31j
Post by: Hippocrates on January 12, 2024, 07:35:20 pm
If you want to go to the tribunal, I am happy to represent you.

Meanwhile:

1.  Contravention did not occur
2.  I rely upon my formal representations and will make further submissions when I receive the council's evidence pack.
3.  Personal hearing:  you can attend by phone, representative in person.
4.  Contact by e mail.

PM me if you wish to take up the offer.
Title: Re: Redbridge PCN: Entering and stopping in a Box Junction, High Road Goodmayes 31j
Post by: Felics on January 11, 2024, 11:22:12 pm
Thank you. I will have a look at this a little more tomorrow.

I may need a little guidance on what to put in the paper appeal form when I have look.
Title: Re: Redbridge PCN: Entering and stopping in a Box Junction, High Road Goodmayes 31j
Post by: MrChips on January 11, 2024, 10:47:23 pm
A similar argument has been successful at tribunal before, e.g.

Case Details
Case reference   223033552A
Appellant   Janice Flint
Authority   London Borough of Redbridge
VRM   FV65SVZ
PCN Details
PCN   AF97410735
Contravention date   19 Jun 2023
Contravention time   13:46:00
Contravention location   Goodmayes Road
Penalty amount   GBP 130.00
Contravention   Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date   
Decision Date   17 Aug 2023
Adjudicator   Edward Houghton
Appeal decision   Appeal allowed
Direction   cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons   
The Appellant was represented by Mr Dishman. The grounds of Appeal are set out in Mr Dishman’s skeleton argument which he developed before me. Having considered the matter carefully it seems to me that at least one of the grounds of appeal has some merit. The location is described as Goodmayes Road; however Mr Dishman tells me, and I accept, that there are three box junctions in Goodmayes Road. |The PCN is required to set out the grounds on which a penalty is demanded, and this inevitably includes a clear statement of the location of the alleged contravention. Although it might be possible for a motorist to trace the location from the photographs with some effort the Council’s prior duty is to set it out clearly. There seems to me no good reason why the location could not simply be stated as Goodmayes road junction with (naming the adjacent road) as would routinely be done in the case of a road traffic summons in the Magistrates Court. As the PCN was defective no penalty may be demanded on the basis of it and the Appeal ids allowed
Title: Re: Redbridge PCN: Entering and stopping in a Box Junction, High Road Goodmayes 31j
Post by: Felics on January 11, 2024, 10:09:18 pm
Ah yes!

I've just reread and the PCN says High Road, Goodmayes. Not Goodmayes Road! It was a late night oversight by me.

I've also counted three box junctions along this stretch (the A118 I believe).

Is it worth appealing and representing this fact?

Title: Re: Redbridge PCN: Entering and stopping in a Box Junction, High Road Goodmayes 31j
Post by: MrChips on January 11, 2024, 09:55:32 pm
Wasn't the contravention in High Road rather than Goodmayes Road?

High Road is in excess of 3 miles long with at least 3 box junctions along it.  I think it's a bit rich for Redbridge to insist you traverse over 3 miles checking against the surroundings on their video in the process.
Title: Re: Redbridge PCN: Entering and stopping in a Box Junction, High Road Goodmayes 31j
Post by: Incandescent on January 11, 2024, 06:01:49 pm
TWOC = Taken Without Owners Consent
Title: Re: Redbridge PCN: Entering and stopping in a Box Junction, High Road Goodmayes 31j
Post by: Felics on January 11, 2024, 01:40:30 pm
Should have mentioned the TWOC ground.

https://bit.ly/3N6Dy7a

Sorry, what is TWOC?

The appeal you've linked - don't I sufficiently describe this in point 1 of my first appeal? Or do you mean I should have cited the specific case? If so, is it worth citing this in my next appeal?
Title: Re: Redbridge PCN: Entering and stopping in a Box Junction, High Road Goodmayes 31j
Post by: Hippocrates on January 11, 2024, 01:31:59 pm
Should have mentioned the TWOC ground.

https://bit.ly/3N6Dy7a
Title: Re: Redbridge PCN: Entering and stopping in a Box Junction, High Road Goodmayes 31j
Post by: Incandescent on January 11, 2024, 12:30:53 pm
Your Para 2 or your reps (conflation of payment and appeal time periods is now pretty much a dead duck, and adjudicators won't cancel a PCN on it.  This is probably because the Act under which the PCN is issued is flawed, as it defines a two different periods, one for payment and one for representations.

Your first point can win, but it's not a slam-dunk appeal, but see what the "terriers" on here say.  They may be short of rats to chase at the moment !
Title: Redbridge PCN: Entering and stopping in a Box Junction, High Road Goodmayes 31j
Post by: Felics on January 11, 2024, 12:18:54 pm
Hello,

I've received a PCN. YouTube link as follows



https://youtu.be/C8ddMG6V_G4



I am the white SUV that stops at the top of the box junction. The contravention states that I am "entering and stopping in a box junction".

PCN details are as follows:



(https://i.imgur.com/eHzc9w0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VcNdeHa.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/MQzwNPp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/L6Oy2tk.jpg)



I represented with the following:



(https://i.imgur.com/QHPULUP.jpg)



This was based on a number of cases that I saw on Pepipoo or FTLA.



http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t149826.html
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/yellow-box-ticket/15/
http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t150070.html
http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t149002.html



Received a rejection yesterday:



(https://i.imgur.com/hngz9Le.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KdAx8En.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6oT2TNp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/egnOkdC.jpg)



My question is whether I should pay the reduced fine still.
It seems that some of the above cases I referenced are still ongoing so it may depend on them.

Happy to hear thoughts.