Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Rudess on June 28, 2023, 08:33:27 pm

Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Hippocrates on February 02, 2024, 12:41:10 pm
My absolute pleasure. :)
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Rudess on February 02, 2024, 12:10:04 pm
Big thanks again to @Hippocrates who helped me a lot throughout this process of appeals and adjudicator and took even time to talk to me on the phone.

His insights from previous cases were so valuable, and he even helped me to get costs, which I then donated to a worthy cause.

Thank you so much!
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Hippocrates on January 15, 2024, 08:07:29 pm
Costs awarded.  5 hours.  They did not contest.

Best of luck with their bankruptcy etc.  ::)  That's now two costs decisions against them. £95 + £38.
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Hippocrates on December 21, 2023, 08:48:02 am
;D  Indeed. The last decision by Mr Houghton highlighted that the submissions were "incontrovertibly correct" and he said that they should have cancelled the ticket from the start.  Not only did they not consider at all your first challenge, but also they failed to consider the formal representations as well.  Pathetic incompetence as well as wholly unreasonable con duct - and they should have learnt from the other case!
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Rudess on December 21, 2023, 08:14:04 am
With the help of cp8759 and Hippocrates, I submitted an appeal to London Tribunals and a hearing was set for January.

Funnily, a few days ago Havering submitted ' Do Not Contest' to the London Tribunals, which means that I have won.

Now I will ask for costs, based on other precedents as highlighted by Hippocrates.
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Hippocrates on December 02, 2023, 11:18:46 am
This should be straightforward.  Looking forward to the details.  ;)
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Hippocrates on November 30, 2023, 05:52:10 pm
Great.  Let the sport commence.  8) Can they actually read?  We can add a total failure to consider, too.  Really looking forward to this one.  ;D
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Rudess on November 30, 2023, 12:52:33 pm
Thank you, will do
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Hippocrates on November 30, 2023, 12:28:49 pm
•   Go online and register the appeal. London Tribunals website.
•   Ground:  no breach.
•   I rely upon my informal and formal representations and full submissions will follow upon receipt of the council’s evidence pack.
•   Do not mention you are being represented at this time as you can always send an e mail later before the hearing.
•   Choose personal hearing any time after 11 a.m.


I have tailored this advice for good reason!  ;)
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Hippocrates on November 29, 2023, 11:49:55 pm
Do you want me to represent you free of charge?  Their paperwork is vastly defective and I have just won a costs award yesterday.

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-driving-in-a-bus-lane-within-the-restricted-period-insufficient-upright-sign/

https://drive.google.com/uc?id=13xqeZ23037Nbq451v-7z-F3YN6utZc63

PM sent.  I will advise what to write to register the appeal if you wish me to represent.  And I will require their attendance.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=145245&view=getlastpost

and associated link.
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Incandescent on November 29, 2023, 10:57:17 pm
Well, as usual, with no re-offer of the discount,  it's now a total no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals as the penalty remains the same and there are no additional costs.
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Rudess on November 29, 2023, 10:14:32 pm
You wouldn't be surprised to hear that I got Notice of Rejection of Formal representations.

I have scanned the letter , the right to appeal and the notice to appeal.

(https://i.ibb.co/xg1X2w9/IMG-3501.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/9sZS6nJ/IMG-3502.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/McpgQVP/IMG-3503.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/PFRYhgW/IMG-3504.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/BfBhK0D/IMG-3505.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/dKP9jHn/IMG-3506.jpg)
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: cp8759 on October 14, 2023, 04:26:47 pm
That's very unfortunate, if they hadn't found them you would have had a failure to consider as an additional ground.
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Rudess on October 14, 2023, 02:14:22 pm
Draft representation:

Dear London Borough of Havering,

I require you to consider my informal representations as my formal representations.

Yours faithfully,

Submitted and pasted my original informal representations, just in case they 'can't find them' ;-)
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: cp8759 on October 12, 2023, 05:43:30 pm
Draft representation:

Dear London Borough of Havering,

I require you to consider my informal representations as my formal representations.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Rudess on October 11, 2023, 12:22:26 pm
Quote
Should I upload the enforcement notice here?

Yes - just redact name & address

Quote
Thank you , submitting it now and will keep you updated when I heard back from them.

Did you get any sort of receipt or acknowledgement, or take screenshot of successful submission?

Here is the Enforcement Notice:
(https://i.ibb.co/VJQzPKs/IMG-3238-1.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/GRrQtjG/IMG-3239-1.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/ngCb1yD/IMG-3240-1.jpg)


To answer your second question, yes I did receive email acknowledgement on the 2nd July 2023 with reference number. But I haven't had any further communications.  Judging on the enforcement notice, they treat it as if they didn't receive from me anything.
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: John U.K. on October 11, 2023, 11:40:22 am
Quote
Should I upload the enforcement notice here?

Yes - just redact name & address

Quote
Thank you , submitting it now and will keep you updated when I heard back from them.

Did you get any sort of receipt or acknowledgement, or take screenshot of successful submission?
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Rudess on October 11, 2023, 11:01:28 am
Today I have received by post the 'Enforcement Notice' dated 9th October 2023. They have not responded at all to my representations, simply ignored them.

The alleged contravention was 27th May 2023 and it's been more than 56 days since I submitted my representations, but they were completely ignored.

Should I upload the enforcement notice here?
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Hippocrates on August 28, 2023, 03:04:16 pm
Just enjoy the old adage:  no news is good news.  And do nothing.
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: cp8759 on August 28, 2023, 12:33:15 pm
There is no statutory deadline under the 1996 Act, but if they go over 3 months adjudicators might allow an appeal on the basis of undue / unreasonable delay.
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Rudess on August 27, 2023, 06:50:54 pm
Today have been exactly 56 days since I submitted the appeal, but I haven't heard back neither by email nor by post.

When I appealed, it stated that the council will aim to respond by post or email within 56 days.
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Rudess on July 02, 2023, 08:51:00 pm
Thank you , submitting it now and will keep you updated when I heard back from them.
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: cp8759 on July 02, 2023, 08:50:16 pm
not F?
No, because there is no such thing under the London Local Authorities Act 1996.
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Rudess on July 02, 2023, 08:48:30 pm
not F?
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: cp8759 on July 02, 2023, 08:46:41 pm
A, the contravention did not occur.
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Rudess on July 02, 2023, 08:41:16 pm
First option doesn't work so I clicked on second one, please note the representation reason are not exactly the same which is on the PCN:


What should I choose?

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: cp8759 on July 02, 2023, 08:34:10 pm
Went to the URL that is given on the PCN to challenge. Interestingly, the informal challenge is only available is the PCN was left on the vehicle, while the formal challenge if the PCN was sent by post.

Should I use the first or second option?
If the first option works use that, if not use the second.

The policy you found is irrelevant as it doesn't apply to this sort of PCN, but we're not relying on the council policy anyway so it doesn't really matter.
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Rudess on July 02, 2023, 08:26:22 pm
One more thing, Havering share their policy for enforcing cancelling a PCN: https://www.havering.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/96/policy_for_enforcing_or_cancelling_a_pcn.pdf

I note this on page 38, interestingly my PCN wasn't issued based on TMA, but on Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 and London Local Authorities Act 1996.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Rudess on July 02, 2023, 07:56:19 pm
Went to the URL that is given on the PCN to challenge. Interestingly, the informal challenge is only available is the PCN was left on the vehicle, while the formal challenge if the PCN was sent by post.

Should I use the first or second option?

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Hippocrates on June 29, 2023, 11:22:55 am
If Havering Council don't have Secretary of State approval for the CCTV camera, they cannot enforce bus lanes under the Act shown at the top of the PCN. Of course, since this issue came up there has been a mad rush by all London councils to get this approval, so they may have it by now.

Are you referring to Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, or London Local Authorities Act 1996?

Is there a way to check if a CCTV has such approval?

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=145245&pid=1725100&mode=threaded&start=#entry1725100

They have had a certificate for some months now.
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Hippocrates on June 29, 2023, 11:10:31 am
Just use cp's draft.  Yes.  Cases are won on the wrong wording.  By the way, they do have a new certificate.  The PCN is non-compliant - not limited grounds.
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Rudess on June 29, 2023, 08:16:50 am
Thank you for that.

So basically the challenge is based on their limited 'grounds' to appeal?

Was there a similar PCN here that was won successsfully with this approach?
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: cp8759 on June 28, 2023, 11:27:27 pm
Is it worth appealing and taking it all the way through adjudicator?
Yes, because the PCN is a clusterF*&k. Draft representation:


Dear London Borough of Havering,

I bring a collateral challenge against the penalty charge notice, because the penalty charge notice mis-states the statutory grounds on which representations may be made.

The PCN is issued under the London Local Authorities Act 1996, and under that Act the following grounds do not exist:
1) The vehicle had been permitted to remain at rest in the place in question by a person who was in control of the vehicle without the consent of the owner,
2) We are a hire firm and the vehicle was hired under a hiring agreement,
3) The penalty charge exceeded the amount due in the circumstances of the case.

Misstating the statutory grounds of appeal in this way is a material departure from the requirements of the statutory scheme, and it is liable to be prejudicial because a motorist could challenge a PCN in the mistaken belief that one of those inapplicable grounds can be established, the PCN is therefore misleading.

In light of this serious procedural error, a collateral challenge is made out and the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Let us know when you get the informal rejection, with a bit of luck they'll throw in a failure to consider as a bonus prize.
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Rudess on June 28, 2023, 10:38:34 pm
If Havering Council don't have Secretary of State approval for the CCTV camera, they cannot enforce bus lanes under the Act shown at the top of the PCN. Of course, since this issue came up there has been a mad rush by all London councils to get this approval, so they may have it by now.

Are you referring to Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, or London Local Authorities Act 1996?

Is there a way to check if a CCTV has such approval?
Title: Re: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Incandescent on June 28, 2023, 10:17:01 pm
If Havering Council don't have Secretary of State approval for the CCTV camera, they cannot enforce bus lanes under the Act shown at the top of the PCN. Of course, since this issue came up there has been a mad rush by all London councils to get this approval, so they may have it by now.
Title: PCN 34j - Havering Council
Post by: Rudess on June 28, 2023, 08:33:27 pm
I received the below PCN from Havering Council, alleging to drive in a bus lane within the restricted period.

(https://i.ibb.co/rG16WzK/pcn1.jpg)

This is the road, you can see where the council's camera is (which is where bus lane starts) and where is the traffic light, I think it's ridiculous to issue PCN for that. The bus lane just ends close to the traffic light.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZLGhS49/Screenshot-2023-06-28-at-11-20-31.png)

Video: https://streamable.com/adyap7

While the car was in the bus lane, it is just because I had to turn left from Straight Road to Farringdon Avenue (Romford) into another road. I was literally 2-3 seconds, but of course their camera doesn't show that I turned left.

PCN
(https://i.ibb.co/jZYF9dr/IMG-2703.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/BccpsxD/IMG-2704.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/JxZ6RmV/IMG-2705.jpg)


Is it worth appealing and taking it all the way through adjudicator?