Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Speeding and other criminal offences => Topic started by: bobjones on June 20, 2026, 11:24:29 am
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That's not a question. It's an observation with a question mark misplaced at the end of it.
At this point, you are being required by law to name the driver. The online form does not have a section for extraneous information. If you feel that there is information that might assist your cause at this stage (and I have yet to see any on this thread that in my humble opinion would), you could write to the police separately, or include a covering letter with your s. 172 response by post.
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There's an email address so I'll try that
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Ah, ok, will do.
Thank you
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Sorry, another question. I'm providing the driver details online but there's nowhere to add any additional information or to add pictures?
Indeed - the s172 process only cares about naming the driver. Until the driver is nominated they wouldn't engage anyway.
There should be separate contact details, either email address or postal - possibly even a phone number? If not, google can probably provide them...
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No, there wouldn't be. That system is purely to deal with driver nomination.
You will have to make your representations to the police separately.
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Sorry, another question. I'm providing the driver details online but there's nowhere to add any additional information or to add pictures. Is there something I'm missing?
(Edited)
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The common threshold for court is usually 3s into red. But if you are offered a CoFP it would probably be wise to accept it…
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Great, will do.
Thank you
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At what point could I send my pictures to the Police to see if they would consider them?
At any time, the sooner the better.
Along with your response to the "request for driver's details" might be as good a time as any (or even before you respond, making sure you do no miss the 28 day deadline).
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Ah. I'm getting mixed up. Sorry, not familiar with all this, I've had a very unremarkable driving history without points/court etc.
So I would have to attend court with hard copies of my pictures?
At what point could I send my pictures to the Police to see if they would consider them?
Thanks
Mark
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Ok, I think I'll try option 2 as I don't feel like I'll be offered a FPN at 3.6 seconds…
You will know whether or not you have been offered a course or FP before you have to make your choice. You will only have to choose an option if you are not offered either of those (or you don't want to accept one).
I'm on a smallish pension so the different cost outcomes aren't very far apart anyway for the guilty options.
They will be at tleast £555 apart even if there was no fine at all. Costs will be either £95 or £650, regardless of your income (unless the court uses its discretion to award less).
I guess I can do this online and upload my pictures of the damaged traffic light?
Almost certainly not. You will have to attend court (hence Option 2).
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Ok, I think I'll try option 2 as I don't feel like I'll be offered a FPN at 3.6 seconds (after the advice on here). I'm on a smallish pension so the different cost outcomes aren't very far apart anyway for the guilty options.
I guess I can do this online and upload my pictures of the damaged traffic light?
Thanks again
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If you are prosecuted, the first you will hear of it will be a “Single Justice Procedure Notice”.
This will ask you to enter a plea and will give you three choices:
1. Plead guilty but not attend court.
2. Plead guilty and attend court.
3. Plead Not Guilty.
If you want to make an application for SRNtE, you must choose option 2. You will have to attend court and make your application before the magistrates.
The police have six months from the date of the offence to begin court proceedings and in many areas they take all of that. If an out-of-court offer is to be made you should hear about that far more quickly, probably within a couple of weeks of the police receiving a response from the person who was driving.
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Thank you, that all seems very sensible advice.
Not denying the offence, I was just shocked to have committed it, I'm not the type to run red lights, and wanted to work out why it happened.
I'll confirm the driver details and then see how to contact the court with our Guilty but please consider etc.
By the way, this picture perhaps gives a better drivers type view of the angle of the traffic light
(https://i.postimg.cc/zv9jtnk8/drivers-view.jpg)
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I would say that puts a different complexion on the issue and I agree with the above.
The court may consider that you had two red lights showing clearly and a green arrow allowing you to turn right only (with a mandatory "turn right" sign beneath it).
I was uncertain of your chances of success before you provided that latest picture. Now I am far less certain. In fact, I would say it is more likely than not that you would be convicted.
One thing which may sway your decision is this:
If you are offered a course or a fixed penalty and you accept it, it will cost you about £100. If you are prosecuted and plead guilty, you will pay a fine of half a week's net income, reduced by a third for a guilty plea (so a third of a week's income). You will also pay a surcharge of 40% of that fine and about £95 prosecution costs. An income of £500pw will see you with a bill for about £330.
However, if you are found guilty following a trial, you will obviously lose the discount for a guilty plea and prosecution costs will be in the region of £650. So you are looking at a total of £1,000 based on the same income.
I would certainly not take that risk based on what you have showed us.
An approach to the police will cost you nothing though I believe it will fall on deaf ears. An application to consider SRNtE should not incur extra costs. You are not disputing any evidence; I doubt the prosecution would object to you introducing your evidence of the damaged lights. It's simply a matter of the court considering the circumstances.
However, if you are offered an out-of-court disposal I think I would be inclined to accept it.
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Is the light being twisted a valid or potentially succesful defence or should I plead guilty?
Well, the offence was committed - I don't think you are denying that. The green light being an arrow imho reduces your chances but I get the point about being green. From the recent photos, that post doesn't look excessively twisted and taken from the right turn lane (and not the view from lane 3 which is the material position?)
As already noted, the time into red means out of court settlements are unlikely. (Will depend on the Force's policy)
On the basis the matter will head towards a prosecution, I guess there's little to lose in pointing out the defect to the Police and seeing if they will consider. (They may not and state it would be a matter for the court only)
...when the 'summons' (SJPN) arrives* then you can decide what to plead. Another option would be pleading guilty but to ask for the court to consider Special Reasons Not to Endorse where all of the following apply:
1. Not amount to a defence
2. Valid reasons that the Court should take into account
3. Not relate to the offender, e.g. you cannot argue you'd lose your job because of it
4. Something that reduces the severity such as a mitigating or extenuating circumstances
Additional court costs could be incurred with the SRNtE so is not risk free.
* they have 6 months to commence the prosecution, annoyingly they often start them close to the cut-off (Just when you think they have 'forgotten')
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I see pictures
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(https://i.postimg.cc/d38YS0j5/close-up.jpg)
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Well I went back today and the luckily for me light is still bent.
I was mistaken on the right turn light, it does show a green arrow but in my defence the straight on red light is not visible at all and at 30 - 40mph in traffic I just registered the green light pointing at me.
A side observation is that the straight ahead and right turn lights show green together and then the straight ahead light turns red followed by the right turn light going red about 4 seconds later. This means we hit the junction just at the wrong moment in the sequence to see a red light on our side of the road.
Is the light being twisted a valid or potentially succesful defence or should I plead guilty?
I'll insert two pictures I took today below. Please let me know if you can't see them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJc1fCjN/wide-shot.jpg)
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Ah, I see... The mini?
The only downside I can see is the green you saw had a right turn only sign underneath. (And that the lights on the left and centre were red)
Yes, we are the grey Mini. Is the picture showing up?
True but this is a very busy road with a 40 mph limit so a lot to take in. I just saw a big green light!
My partner thought they saw the left hand red light but it was just as we went through so we weren't sure what had happened and why we remember this moment.
Wish we had a dash cam as it would paint a thousand words as to our view.
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It’s very hard to say how a court might view this.
Indeed, there are no guarantees...
Worth delaying the driver nomination slightly (do not miss the 28 days) to give some time to get photos and query the council.
Then worth presenting any findings to the Police but they may not engage short of going to court.
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So as I understand it, you’re saying that the pole on the island (between the three lane section and the single “right turn” lane) was rotated so that the light that was supposed to have been turned towards the right turn lane (and so only visible from it) was facing the oncoming traffic in the three lane section? Meanwhile, the light controlling the three lane section (with the “No Right Turn” sign below it) was skewed away from that section and was invisible from it?
Yes
If you were in the outermost of the three lanes I can see the confusion there might be. However, if you were in the nearside or middle, I would think a court might consider that the light on the nearside (by “Paddy Power”) and that on the large overhead support would be sufficient.
Yes we were in the outside lane in the grey Mini pictured.
It’s very hard to say how a court might view this. You have been helped very much by the police photograph not showing the errant set of lights. I would get down there pronto to see if the fault still exists and take a few photos if it does.
The Police photograph does show the lights for straight ahead are facing the wrong way
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Ah, I see... The mini?
The only downside I can see is the green you saw had a right turn only sign underneath. (And that the lights on the left and centre were red)
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So as I understand it, you’re saying that the pole on the island (between the three lane section and the single “right turn” lane) was rotated so that the light that was supposed to have been turned towards the right turn lane (and so only visible from it) was facing the oncoming traffic in the three lane section? Meanwhile, the light controlling the three lane section (with the “No Right Turn” sign below it) was skewed away from that section and was invisible from it?
If you were in the outermost of the three lanes I can see the confusion there might be. However, if you were in the nearside or middle, I would think a court might consider that the light on the nearside (by “Paddy Power”) and that on the large overhead support would be sufficient.
I must say it seems a very strange arrangement to have the two sets of lights on a single pole like that. I would think it would be preferable to have two distinct poles. However, it is what it is.
It’s very hard to say how a court might view this. You have been helped very much by the police photograph not showing the errant set of lights. I would get down there pronto to see if the fault still exists and take a few photos if it does.
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Sorry, yes, One lane turning right.
Yes the pole was twisted so I could see the green light for turning right. It was a full green, not one with a illuminated green arrow. My red light is shown in the police picture pointing more towards any pedestrians waiting to cross from the left.
That combined with the busy traffic and the bend in the road caused me to misread the situation.
I put the Police photo in my first post but maybe it's not showing up? I'm not great with tech.
Here's the link https://i.postimg.cc/1RFCdxsq/Red-light-photo.jpg
And I'll try inserting it here.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1RFCdxsq/Red-light-photo.jpg)
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This is all sounding quite serious so I need to get prepared.
Depends on what you're planning to do. A guilty plea won't be much of a drama but a full blown trial something quite different...
Looking at the location: Here (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5829934,-0.2270358,3a,75y,152.01h,99.3t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIXa-I6B53Ci6sT_QGLA8Tw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-9.302036254554679%26panoid%3DIXa-I6B53Ci6sT_QGLA8Tw%26yaw%3D152.01408027180221!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDYxNi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) - there are 3 lanes going ahead and only 1 physically segregated right turn (with its own pair of lights).
If I'm reading it correctly, it was the shared pole for the straight ahead and right turn that was twisted, thus the right turn light was facing into the 3rd lane?
The fact that the polices own photo shows the traffic light is pointing the wrong way must help doesn't it? Add to that one 6 inches to it's side (and pointing at me) was showing green compounds the error.
Can we see that photo?
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Sorry, I didn't realise that I could do Streetview links.
In this you can see the two traffic lights on the one pole and how when the pole is rotated to the position shown in the Police photo it would show the other traffic light to approaching traffic (which was green).
The fact that the polices own photo shows the traffic light is pointing the wrong way must help doesn't it? Add to that one 6 inches to it's side (and pointing at me) was showing green compounds the error.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/b9T7BZ6EqSw7V5wh9
My previous issues on here and Pepipoo have been more about private parking issues so I slipped into using "we" from the old advice about not identifying the driver so apologies for that.
I'll go back over there tomorrow and get some pictures. Hopefully it's not been fixed yet. Does anyone know how you go about contacting the council about traffic light issues? This is all sounding quite serious so I need to get prepared.
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It says we were 3.6 seconds into red if that matters?
Yes it does matter.
Unlike speeding, the police do not publish the criteria they use to offer courses and fixed penalties for red light offences.
However, from anecdotal evidence, I would say that it is extremely unlikely that a course will be offered and quite unlikely that a fixed penalty will be offered for that length of “time into red”. If neither is offered, prosecution in court will be the result.
Do you know whether the light is still damaged? I assume you do not have any photographs showing the damage. You could try contacting the local authority concerned to see what information they have about it.
I note you refer to “we” throughout. You should realise that there is no “we” involved here. The only person to face enforcement action (whatever that might be) is the driver.
Unfortunately your link is not to GSV direct and it prompts me to update my browser (which I’m not going to do). Please attach a genuine GSV link.
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Hi All,
Please could I have some advice regards failing to comply with a red light.
Our defence is that the red light we passed shared its pole with another traffic light for two right turning lanes which was showing green. The traffic light pole was damaged in that it had rotated 30 or 40 degrees clockwise (looking from above).
This meant that we couldn't see the red light, just a green light on our side of the 3 lane road.
Is this a valid excuse? Annoyingly the Police photo cuts off right at the edge of the second set of lights but it does show the red light is not facing approching traffic.
I'll insert the police picture below and attach a google streetview from last year showing the scene. We're in the grey Mini going over the line. You can just see the twisted traffic light to our right.
Just got the letter today so we'll start with declaring the driver but wondered if it's then worth appealing this or if it's better to just pay up and hope for a safety course? It says we were 3.6 seconds into red if that matters?
Thanks very much.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1RFCdxsq/Red-light-photo.jpg)
https://i.postimg.cc/1RDBHprW/Google-Streetview.png