Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Hnaz on December 14, 2023, 07:48:44 pm
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I dealt with PN37125522 by phone with the tribunal yesterday. Here is the outcome:
I heard this appeal by telephone, speaking to the Appellant’s representative Mr Dishman.
There is no doubt that the sign for the bay was defaced, and seriously so, making its provisions illegible. Although I note the Council’s evidence as to warning notices issued, Mr Dishman has told me that the vehicle has changed hands; but in any event I know of no authority to the effect that information as to parking restrictions in force can be given other than by clear and correct prescribed signage. Enforceability does not depend upon the personal knowledge of individual motorists. As the sign was defaced it ceased to be clear or compliant and in these circumstances no contravention occurred.
Hopefully this will lead newham to look more carefully at other PCNs of the same kind which are being challenged, by me, and presumably others.
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I recommend keeping this nice and simple.
Formal representations PN36819479
The contravention did not occur as it was not properly signed.
The PCN is invalid.
It should never have been issued.
It is an abuse of process.
The onus on the council is contained within Regulation 18 of Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996
18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—
(a)before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;
(b)the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force
Please cancel the PCN.
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No I haven’t posted this anywhere else but here.
Not sure what you mean by Date of Service ? Today is my last day to appeal so help on writing back would be very helpful !
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Did you post this on twitter recently?
The PCN is pants.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2
Occurred not date of service.
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I have put up 2 posts for the 2 NTO’s I received so any help would be appreciated !!
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OP, I can see this thread becoming chaotic - multiple PCNs, unknown challenges, transposed replies which are different for each PCN(although they share common misconceptions), more photos than we need and which can't be linked easily to a unique PCN or differentiated between the council's and the OP's and one NTO which we haven't seen.
IMO, you should run each PCN separately and start new threads for the others when you receive their NTOs. For the moment in this thread I would suggest that you:
Post the NTO, the PCN and their actual response to your challenge;
Post their photos for this PCN.
I agree I will post separate threads for each NTO
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The info missing is your reason for parking there.
Were you just taking advantage of the fact signs were sprayed? Or some other reason.
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OP, I can see this thread becoming chaotic - multiple PCNs, unknown challenges, transposed replies which are different for each PCN(although they share common misconceptions), more photos than we need and which can't be linked easily to a unique PCN or differentiated between the council's and the OP's and one NTO which we haven't seen.
IMO, you should run each PCN separately and start new threads for the others when you receive their NTOs. For the moment in this thread I would suggest that you:
Post the NTO, the PCN and their actual response to your challenge;
Post their photos for this PCN.
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Warning ticket
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https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/newham-12-parked-in-a-residents-bay-with-defaced-signs-manor-park-road/msg11738/#msg11738
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Thanks for the help ! Would you be able to draft a reply with all the main points ? Also, I had seen another similar case on here and the replies told him that the code issued was incorrect and should actually be code 16 - would this also apply for me ?
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Council’s reply is rubbish. Controlled zones regulate the yellow lines in the zone, not the bays. Each parking area in the zone needs its own sign - not one sign for each individual parking space, but one sign for each “run” of bays, or multiple if it’s longer than 30m. Every yellow line or junction between spaces starts a new run. They can’t rely on a sign on the opposite side of the road or 100m down the street on the other side of a junction to enforce bay rules, nor can they use the zone entry sign like they’re trying to do.
On another note, you need to be very careful where you park in the near future. Newham love to tow cars, and having more than 3 outstanding unpaid penalty charge notices makes you a high-priority target to be towed. Next time they ticket you, don’t be surprised if your car disappears off to the pound.
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Theor response says this
I note your comments, however, you have been issued with three warning notices.
The warning notices will have informed you that you should not be parking in the space if the signs are vandalised or missing.
The notice will have warned that the signs are being replaced and a PCN may be issued without further notice and even before the signs are replaced.
So please post these.
What they are saying is tosh, each parking bay, even if subdivided into individual vehicle spaces, requires its own sign in a CPZ. They cannot escape from this requirement. If the signs are vandalised they need to stop enforcing until the signs are reinstated. Needless to say, their greed for the cash means they just carry on as usual hoping people cough-up. And they usually do; except you, of course !
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Okay, I’ve just received the NTO for PN36819479 so how would I appeal this ? They’ve mentioned about there not having to be a sign for each individual bay so how would I reply to this point ?
Thanks !
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The hours on the Controlled Zone sign apply to the yellow lines, not the bays. These require their own signs, even if their hours are the same as the sign. The signs are there, but somebody has gone along them with a can of black paint.
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Hi,
So this road has been permits only but since I believe before COVID some signs on the street have been sprayed. So of course everyone was parking in these bays to avoid getting tickets. However, back in September someone went and sprayed all the signs on this road which led to the council sticking warning tickets on cars saying the signs will be cleaned and you could get a ticket. I believe I got 1 warning ticket and after that I got a few PCN tickets because I was told the signs are sprayed so I can appeal it... So I appealed them all and eventually stopped parking there but now they have started to reply back to me and have rejected all my appeals ! They also cleaned all the signs this weekend 09/12.
I am hoping that I can appeal these again with help from everyone on here because I really do not want to have to pay the otherwise hefty charge !
So this is the road and I have highlighted Meeson Road too as these signs were also blacked out. https://maps.app.goo.gl/wFhtGiPnBsGt2Y9W7
[attachimg=1]
-- The 1st PCN is PN36819479 to which I had appealed but don't have a copy of my reply but I basically said that the signs were sprayed making them void so you had better cancel this ticket.
[attachimg=2]
(https://i.imgur.com/tMei6X1.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/nO3bMuq.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/rMhUYNh.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/sqlrPww.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/eIxCmZV.png)
And this was their reply :
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Thank you for your correspondence received on 09 October 2023 regarding the above penalty charge notice (PCN). Your comments and the notes of the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) have been considered.
Your vehicle was observed at 08:36 Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place where required, or without payment of the parking charge in Dirleton Road.
You have stated that the signage was blacked out. The grounds for cancellation have not been established. it is not reasonable to ignore a sign simply because it is not in immaculate condition. On this occasion the photographic evidence indicates that this was not the case. The Council illustrates this restriction either by means of time plates which stand erect adjacent to the aforementioned permit bay(s) or by placing a Controlled Parking Zone (CPZ) entry plate at the entrance to the CPZ. The CEO photographic evidence shows sign at the entrance to the CPZ. Under the new TSRGD (Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2017) (amended) bays are no longer required to be linked. An upright sign on the traverse line of the first bay is applicable to all bays UP TO 30 metres from where the sign is in both directions even if the bays are not linked. The contravention occurs when a vehicle waits / stops / parks in a residents’. The Council expects motorists to have a valid virtual permit or a valid virtual visitor’s permit, if they do not, they will receive a Penalty Charge Notice.
You have not satisfactorily demonstrated in your appeal that an exemption applies. The other points submitted in mitigation do not justify the cancellation of the PCN. There are control parking signs at the entry and exit points of the Controlled parking zone.
In conclusion, having taken all aspects of this matter into consideration, no justification for cancelling the penalty charge notice has been found.
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-- Now the 2nd PCN PN36921737 for this I had actually put a sign saying broken down but still got a ticket
(https://i.imgur.com/fkwUkz6.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/A1lPC8r.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/5iLlpdt.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZLvxpd6.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/QRw5vt0.png)
And this was their reply :
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Thank you for your correspondence received on 16 October 2023 regarding the above penalty charge notice (PCN). Your comments and the notes of the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) have been considered.
Your vehicle was observed at 11:13 Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place where required, or without payment of the parking charge in Dirleton Road.
You have stated that your vehicle was broken down and there was no sign where you had parked.
I note your comments, however, you have been issued with three warning notices.
The warning notices will have informed you that you should not be parking in the space if the signs are vandalised or missing.
The notice will have warned that the signs are being replaced and a PCN may be issued without further notice and even before the signs are replaced.
If a vehicle is left parked in breach of the restrictions, it is liable to receive a PCN.
The CEO observed the vehicle parked without a valid permit therefore the vehicle was parked illegally. No exempt activity was seen and the PCN was subsequently issued.
It is the responsibility of the driver to be aware of the restrictions and ensure their vehicle is legally parked.
Please also be advised that you will have passed signs on entry into the zone which will have shown that you are entering into a controlled parking zone.
If you are a resident you should obtain a resident permit. If you are a visitor, you can speak to the person you are visiting who should be able to activate a visitor permit. More information on permits can be found online: https://www.newham.gov.uk/parking-permits
There is also the option to pay to park using the pay by phone service (where applicable.)
The onus is on the driver to ensure their vehicle is legally parked.
In regards to the vehicle being broken down – you have not provided any evidence to substantiate your claim.
You can view evidence of this contravention online at www.newham.gov.uk/parking-permits/parking-enforcement-fines/4 by clicking ‘View and Challenge your PCN here’, then ‘View a PCN’. You will be required to enter the PCN number and the vehicle registration number.
In conclusion, having taken all aspects of this matter into consideration, no justification for cancelling the penalty charge notice has been found.
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-- 3rd PCN PN37086704 now this one actually doesn't have a picture of the sprayed sign but I replied the same anyway.
(https://i.imgur.com/MkZVL30.png)
And this was their reply :
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Thank you for your correspondence received on 02 November 2023 regarding the above penalty charge notice (PCN). Your comments and the notes of the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) have been considered.
Your vehicle was observed at 10:19 Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place where required, or without payment of the parking charge in Meeson Road.
You can view evidence of this contravention online at www.newham.gov.uk/parking-permits/parking-enforcement-fines/4 by clicking ‘View and Challenge your PCN here’, then ‘View a PCN’. You will be required to enter the PCN number and the vehicle registration number.
You have stated it was not clear there were any restrictions because the sign was vandalised.
We have carefully reviewed your comments and the evidence available, however grounds for cancellation of the penalty charge have not been established.
The contravention location is within a resident parking zone (RPZ) called Stratford South East (SSE) which is clearly signposted at all roads at the entrance to this RPZ. These signs restrict parking within the prescribed hours without a permit between the hours of 10am - 12 Noon (Mon-Fri). You will have passed one of these signs when entering the RPZ.
Further to this, we have previously made you aware of the parking restrictions in Meeson Road in a warning we have issued to this vehicle. (24 August 2023 – PN36536113).
The law is clear that it is the driver’s responsibility to ensure they are aware of the restriction that operate in the areas they chose to drive and park. This means motorists must always check the signs in place on roads where they chose to drive or park. If the closest sign is vandalised then they must seek a nearby sign, or take note of the RPZ restrictions for that area. If they do not do this, they run the risk of committing a contravention.
In conclusion, having taken all aspects of this matter into consideration, no justification for cancelling the penalty charge notice has been found.
**
-- Now the next one PN37125522 I actually just received a Notice To Owner letter but never received the physical PCN ticket. ( This has actually happened to me before where I received a PCN ticket and then few weeks later I received a NTO for another PCN a few hours before the other received so I obviously appealed that saying I never received the PCN and actually I had received another PCN a few hours later which I have appealed. )
(https://i.imgur.com/Qzl4uU9.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/EaFjn8M.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/1xySHTh.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/L4kWrqU.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/moh0ZeK.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Vq9IkbW.png)
So far I have not paid any of these tickets and am actually looking to appeal them again when I receive the NTO's so your advice would be much appreciated.
Also, the CEO always takes a picture of the CPZ sign which is on the main road where there is also permit only bays.
I hope I have given enough information but let me know if you need anything else.
Thanks !
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