Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Felics on December 13, 2023, 10:07:21 am
-
One of the most personable of all of them. :)
-
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mIvUeg3mWoWLPaoAU17gbnZr1ae9CmEy/view).
-
Sorry @Hippocrates I've not dealt with this location before so I have no data on the camera.
-
@cp8759 do we know what the camera is at this location? Interesting they did not provide a VCA certificate or a Witness Statement. Case won today on both points. Costs application to be considered as I wrote to them to do the eminently sensible thing which was to DNC!
HV008 camera?
FOIR sent.
-
So looking forward to this. Say no more at this stage in the game. ;)
-
This should be an interesting one. Failure to consider too.
-
Yes sir. Please e mail me and I will advise in detail.
-
Hi all, @Hippocrates
See attached response to my appeal below:
(https://i.imgur.com/nsLeNKV.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CtWpbIY.jpeg)
Do we now appeal with the verification code?
-
Dear Havering Council
I make the following represenatations against the PCN and EN.
1. I reiterate my previous challenge which I now require you to consider as my formal representations.
2. In addition, I say that the PCN is unenforceable because the sentence under Enforcement Notice on the PCN wrongly states the period in which to pay and make representations The Law states this @
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/section/4/enacted
(3)A penalty charge notice under this Part of this Act must state—
(c)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;
(e)that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an enforcement notice may be served by the council on the person appearing to them to be the owner of the vehicle;
Therefore, the references to date of service in the said sentence is not only wrong but also creates an ambiguity: If after the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which this PCN is served no such representations have been made, and the penalty charge has not been paid, an Enforcement Notice may be served.....
3. Furthermore, the payment option on the PCN does not state the address to which payment may be made:
(f)the address to which payment of the penalty charge must be sent;
4. The last ground: I bring a collateral challenge on the basis that the PCN is unenforceable because the taken without consent ground clearly fetters to theft by its very wording that a crime report be provided. Therefore, this inaccurate reflection of the statutory ground does not take into account that a relative, or friend, may have taken the vehicle without the owner's permission so that the owner would not necessarily, if at all, report the matter to the Police in such circumstances or, indeed, make an insurance claim.
5. I put you to strict proof that the camera at the location has the correct VCA certificate to satisfy the criterion of admissibility of evidence as provided at para. 7(2) Schedule 1 of The London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as amended).
In view of the above, please cancel both the PCN and EN.
**********************************
I would do this online as stated on the EN. .
-
@Felics: Further to our e mail exchange, do it online as per the second sentence under MAKING REPRESENTATION, using the web code.
-
Dear Havering Council
I make the following represenatations against the PCN and EN.
1. I reiterate my previous challenge which I now require you to consider as my formal representations.
2. In addition, I say that the PCN is unenforceable because the sentence under Enforcement Notice on the PCN wrongly states the period in which to pay and make representations The Law states this @
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/section/4/enacted
(3)A penalty charge notice under this Part of this Act must state—
(c)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;
(e)that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an enforcement notice may be served by the council on the person appearing to them to be the owner of the vehicle;
Therefore, the references to date of service in the said sentence is not only wrong but also creates an ambiguity: If after the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which this PCN is served no such representations have been made, and the penalty charge has not been paid, an Enforcement Notice may be served.....
3. Furthermore, the payment option on the PCN does not state the address to which payment may be made:
(f)the address to which payment of the penalty charge must be sent;
4. The last ground: I bring a collateral challenge on the basis that the PCN is unenforceable because the taken without consent ground clearly fetters to theft by its very wording that a crime report be provided. Therefore, this inaccurate reflection of the statutory ground does not take into account that a relative, or friend, may have taken the vehicle without the owner's permission so that the owner would not necessarily, if at all, report the matter to the Police in such circumstances or, indeed, make an insurance claim.
5. I put you to strict proof that the camera at the location has the correct VCA certificate to satisfy the criterion of evidence as provided at para. 7(2) Schedule 1 of The London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as amended).
In view of the above, please cancel both the PCN and EN.
**********************************
I would do this online as stated on the EN. .
-
Update. Received the attached yesterday.
@Hippocrates - any thoughts?
(https://i.imgur.com/GySj6nY.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/yuGOW5K.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/BucYVZL.jpeg)
-
Absolutely. Sorry to have missed the error previously; but, no harm done as it will be highlighted next time.
-
I see, I still wait for enforcement I assume and and not respond ?
-
PCN is ok. The dates are correct as per Part II: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/section/4/enacted
Let's see what their reply would be.
Upon looking more closely, it is still flawed after Enforcement Notice.
-
Typical Beasley bolleaux! Wrong act cited! Wait for the enforcement notice. I will draft stronger reps. for you and, if necessary, act at the Tribunal. Meanwhile, do absolutely nothing.
Actually, mea culpa. There is an error re dates in the PCN after Enforcement Notice. No worries, this can be included at the formal stage v the Enforcement Notice.
-
Hi all,
See attached response from Havering borough today.
(https://i.imgur.com/pwkH2To.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ljlv5Jw.jpeg)
Any thoughts on next steps?
-
Trafficandparkingcontrol@havering.gov.uk
I do it online. Post: no.
-
OK thanks for your help.
Just a final Q. Is there any difference making a challenge via online or post?
I assume their response will come through by mail in any case.
-
PCN is ok. The dates are correct as per Part II: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/section/4/enacted
Let's see what their reply would be.
-
All I can suggest:
Dear Havering
Ref: PCN number HG60871768. VRM:...
I challenge the issue of the PCN as your evidence does not show the vehicle passing an upright bus lane sign.
Please cancel the PCN as the alleged contravention is not proved.
Yours
Name
Address
Thanks - what are your thoughts on challenging it based on the flaw RE the dates (i.e. 28 days per the PCN date)?
Would you recommend that I add this in aswell? I believe it is in point if I'm not mistaken (date of notice vs service). This is a flaw that is provided in this s/sheet by cp8759 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pVrE76_RYY6bNmEpYGbsZkxtpfIeud_BT3SKfg7TzQM/edit#gid=0)
-
All I can suggest:
Dear Havering
Ref: PCN number HG60871768. VRM:...
I challenge the issue of the PCN as your evidence does not show the vehicle passing an upright bus lane sign.
Please cancel the PCN as the alleged contravention is not proved.
Yours
Name
Address
-
I was the representative in the other case. They have completely fixed the PCN wording. We need the PCN number and VRM to look at the video. It is always sensible to challenge. Signage may well be the issue.
Hi,
The video is in this link (https://imgur.com/a/dPJ4DlC) - but I have added it as an attachment to this post
The PCN number is : HG60871768.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
I was the representative in the other case. They have completely fixed the PCN wording. We need the PCN number and VRM to look at the video. It is always sensible to challenge. Signage may well be the issue.
-
You have solved it - well done :)
-
https://imgur.com/a/dPJ4DlC
The forum doesn't seem to like imgur's blockquote embedding... you could try uploading to https://imgbb.com/ and using the BBCodes it provides, or someone else here may know how to embed images from imgur...
I've read https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and this instruction on the imgur help site
"Where do I find the BBCode?
BBCodes are only available on the desktop website. Once you have uploaded your images, hover over an image and click "Get share links" to copy the BBCode."
but to no avail.
Perhaps in Imgur only the person who uploaded the images can obtain the BBCodes
Yes it did take a few goes and reading a few other forums. I've found an easy fix (for anyone else who is wondering).
- Right click "open image in new window".
- Copy URL
- Use [Img http://*URL link*/img]
This creates your own BB code. Let me know if you can see the pics in my original post. On imgur I couldn't see any option for BB codes despite checking thoroughly.
-
https://imgur.com/a/dPJ4DlC
The forum doesn't seem to like imgur's blockquote embedding... you could try uploading to https://imgbb.com/ and using the BBCodes it provides, or someone else here may know how to embed images from imgur...
I've read https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and this instruction on the imgur help site
"Where do I find the BBCode?
BBCodes are only available on the desktop website. Once you have uploaded your images, hover over an image and click "Get share links" to copy the BBCode."
but to no avail.
Perhaps in Imgur only the person who uploaded the images can obtain the BBCodes
-
Hi all,
PCN attached.
A PCN has been mailed to me RE the above contravention - driving in a bus lane within a restricted period. The location is vague but it seems as though it is a contravention (although looking on Google maps I cannot see where the bus lane timings are on any signs).
It seems that the signage is not particularly great but nonetheless a lapse in concentration might be to blame for me being in the bus lane.
I have followed another thread (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-driving-in-a-bus-lane-within-the-restricted-period-insufficient-upright-sign/) which seems to discuss the same contravention on the same stretch of road.
However, looking at the argument presented by the appellant, this appears to be on the basis of the technical failings of the PCN rather than the poor signage.
Comparing the PCN in the above case to my own, it seems I won't be able to rely on both the flaws presented in the above case. The only flaw that I can see is that the statutory 28 day period commences with the date of the notice, not the
date of service.
The second flaw (which isn't present in mine) is that of the appeal rights which Havering council seem to have amended now for bus lane contraventions.
My question is, is it worth appealing this based on the 28 day flaw? It seems like if it does go to adjudication, it may be at the discretion of the adjudicator (even if other adjudicators have agreed in the past).
Thoughts? Comments?
(https://i.imgur.com/x5diBY1.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5rVGyOf.jpg)
[grvideo] https://i.imgur.com/A1FJtpw.mp4[/grvideo]
(https://i.imgur.com/UkucVmO.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/XDfCNkh.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/7MgJF9u.jpeg)