Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: saozgirl03 on May 11, 2026, 08:34:34 pm
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Apologies, I meant Regulation 18, silly me !!
No the driver has no role in the process, it is the owner as recorded on the V5C Registration Crtificate for the car. HOwever, you can authorise a person to act for you when submitting representations, or when attending a hearing at London Tribunals, but if the case fails, payment remains with the vehicle keeper as per the V5C.
Just to clarify...
Take it to the LT and win, happy days!
Take it to the LT and lose, does that mean the amount of the fine is £160 and that is all or are there other fees to pay too?
Only the full PCN penlty is payable if one loses. There are no additional costs whatever.
As for attendance at the hearing, all you have to do is to arrange a date when you are back in the UK. Adjudications are not courts, it is much more informal, with just you and the adjudicator normally, because the councils very rarely bother attending. The adjudicator will have read your reps and may ask questions, then make his decision. It's that simple.
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Thank you for your reply Incandescent!
I'm presuming if this was appealed then it would be the driver that needs to carry it on further? The driver is not me but my husband and neither of us have one once of legal brain cells between us, hence the reaching out on the forum. I guess I should have known this would be more technical than the private parking tickets and it's quite a daunting thought.
Does the help that gets offered on this forum take it step by step, stage by stage or is it a case of you get pointed in the right direction and left to crack on. I'm all up for a fight but some fights I recognise I can't do alone and this is one I'm nervous tackling without full guidance step by step. Our trip abroad will be to a country where their day is our night and visa versa. I know it would just mean setting an alarm to wake up for whatever but what happens if, for whatever reason, he misses it?
Just to clarify...
Take it to the LT and win, happy days!
Take it to the LT and lose, does that mean the amount of the fine is £160 and that is all or are there other fees to pay too?
Many thanks.
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Apart from paying, the next stage is to register an appeal at London Tribunals. You can then arrange a date with them for the adjudication, which you really must attend, (on phone or video, no need to attend premises).
You should be able to get a date beyond your absence period. We've seen some dates on here in November !
Their letter is the usual tosh, of course ! Inadequate signage IS a reason for cancellation, and has won many appeals at London Tribunals. Look at Regulation 18 here: -
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18
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Good morning....
I was away last week and of course during that period of time the rejection letter was posted out dated 2nd June so now some time has been lost.
I did keep an eye out on my email as I thought they would send it via there as well but they didn't.
This is the rejection letter they sent out...
https://ibb.co/WWcQvXFF
https://ibb.co/rRCdZjy0
along with the 'right to appeal' paperwork.
Would anyone please advise whether it is worth a fight as, for the month of July, I will not be in the UK due to attending the 1st year anniversary of my fathers passing. It's going to be an emotional time as it is and I'm debating whether it's worth just paying the £80 (it will gripe me) and wash my hands of it?
Many thanks!
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There is no deadline in the regulations, but councils have a duty to act promptly and fairly. London Tribunals have ruled that anything over 3 months without an adequate explanation is unfair, and the PCN is usually cancelled.
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Best if you wait for their rejection letter. You never know, they may shoot themselves in the foot in their reply.
Ok, will do. Thanks very much.
Out of curiosity, is there a deadline whereby they have to reply back?
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Best if you wait for their rejection letter. You never know, they may shoot themselves in the foot in their reply.
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Looking at the video, I think you have a reasonable case on inadequacy of signage. You say there are two advance signs, but the second one is not placed well at all, and would be taken by most motorists for the road you turned right off, not the one you turned onto. The previous sign is very small and mounted high-up, so could easily be missed or just not noticed.
However, the council are inevitably going to reject your representations, and re-offer you the discount. At that point you can either pay that, or register an appeal at London Tribunals, with the full PCN penalty in play. So a "double-or-quits" gamble.
Because the PCN penalties are so high in London, making the sum payable if lost at LT so large, most people just pay. This is now generating enormous sums of money in London, like around £650 million, (or more), in total, and for me is the scam of the century. Since camera enforcement of moving traffic contraventions came in, councils have been given a Magic Money Tree, and ruthlessly exploit it.
Back again as it is day 12 from submitting the appeal.
Thank you Incandescent for the enlightenment above regarding the extortionate amount of revenue the PCN's are raking in. Quite sickening...
Even though I have not had a rejection yet, I'm getting prepared for it in advance! Am I too early to seek further advice based on the footage I have supplied? Should I wait for the rejection notice to come through first and come back then?
Many thanks
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Looking at the video, I think you have a reasonable case on inadequacy of signage. You say there are two advance signs, but the second one is not placed well at all, and would be taken by most motorists for the road you turned right off, not the one you turned onto. The previous sign is very small and mounted high-up, so could easily be missed or just not noticed.
However, the council are inevitably going to reject your representations, and re-offer you the discount. At that point you can either pay that, or register an appeal at London Tribunals, with the full PCN penalty in play. So a "double-or-quits" gamble.
Because the PCN penalties are so high in London, making the sum payable if lost at LT so large, most people just pay. This is now generating enormous sums of money in London, like around £650 million, (or more), in total, and for me is the scam of the century. Since camera enforcement of moving traffic contraventions came in, councils have been given a Magic Money Tree, and ruthlessly exploit it.
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Thank you @Incandescent...
Please watch this dash cam footage
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EmmkDXi66tgEajMqNoFcUC0Z2gT5xO8H/view?usp=sharing
I have not had to deal with these types of PCN's before only the parking ones as to the deadline time the PCN did not arrive in the post until a week after the date of the notice. The driver went back to see the situation and to take photos but did not think to measure signs etc. The video above is dash cam footage of the warning signs on approach to the restriction sign which was covered then as when the driver went back it was outside restriction times. At the beginning you see one warning sign on the left then the driver turns/veers right and you see another warning sign but that is situated in an odd location and as you drive up Holford Road it gets obscured by the tree branches.
Anyway, rather than just paying the amount this is what I submitted as my representations.
"I make representations against this PCN on the grounds that the restriction signage did not adequately convey the restriction to motorists.
The “No Motor Vehicles During Restricted Hours” sign is positioned excessively high immediately after a give-way junction and before a right-hand bend. A driver approaching this location must focus on giving way and checking for oncoming traffic around the bend, rather than looking upwards for elevated signage.
I have supplied photographs showing the position of the restriction sign, together with photographs showing one advance warning sign facing away from approaching Holford Road traffic and partially obscured by tree foliage.
The warning signs also display unusually small lettering which is difficult to read safely while approaching the junction of East Heath Road and Holford Road.
Given the road layout and positioning of the signage, I do not believe the restriction was adequately conveyed and I respectfully request that the PCN be cancelled"
So that is my defence which was submitted today and now the pressure is off.
If anyone is able to give me advice how to go forward if/when the rejection letter comes through eg...does the driver need to go back to take measurements then I get get that done in advance.
Thank you all again.
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With contraventions like this, one normally looks at the signage, and makes a judgement on whether it is adequate or not. Unfortunately, you've started your thread quite close to the discount end date, so it's difficult to give final advice unless we see the advance signs. However, if you submit your reps within the discount period the council will probably re-offer it to encourage payment.
So if you want to submit reps, base them on what you have told us about the sign and the advance signs.
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Thanks for clarifying the code.
I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but all I'm seeking is advice from anyone whether they think there are grounds to contest this PCN based on the information I've shared.
I get that I need to either pay by today or submit representations but I've no advice as to whether I've got grounds to go by to contest it?
What is it I'm doing wrong here...?
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The contravention code isn't needed.
They correctly describe the contravention and that is all that is required.
Others might look at the vid; I don't have time.
And you are very short of time >
You either pay the discount, TODAY, or submit representations, today online, in order to preserve the discount.
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Ahhh,I was so close....
Is this better?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F3XBvhHqPcRfadpn8s9y6vCWPLQC3Ht1/view?usp=sharing
There were 2 prior warning signs that were completely missed located on E Heath Road. They appear to me to be quite small and the printed restriction times even smaller still. I don't think you would be able to read the times as you are driving past. One sign located on the left hand side shortly before you turn/veer right into Holford Road (its kinda like the letter Y) and one on the actual junction where it veers off right. The 2'warning' signs are circled in green in this picture with the 3rd green circle on the right indicating the restriction sign (at the time the picture was taken it was covered over)https://ibb.co/ZRjW0M0J
The driver was a PH driver en route to picking up a passenger waiting at an address on Cannon Place. Unknown to them there was a new restriction in place and having researched this new restriction I can see that it would impossible for anyone to actually pick the passenger up from Cannon Place without entering the restriction as the restriction encompasses all the surrounding streets too. Fine, the passenger would have had to have walked to the PH driver who should have waited outside the restricted zone but what if that isn't possible...eg, passenger has mobility issues, health issues, elderly etc. I'm not sure how the sign was missed, the driver would not have deliberately driven into a restricted zone willingly to receive a fine afterwards. The restriction sign is placed on the left hand side of Holford Road where the right hand bend is so perhaps the driver was focused more on oncoming traffic coming around the bend instead. There is no restriction sign situated on the other side of Holford Road which I think would be more in the eye line of the driver - are there not supposed to be 2 signs - one on either side of the road? Watching the video it seems to me that the height of the restriction sign is way higher in comparison to the height of the MPV which in itself is 2 meters high. Should I go back and measure the height of the sign, are there regulations around the correct sizing of these signs?
I ask advice too as to whether the PCN is issued correctly, should it not state the contravention code of 52M on the PCN or is that a minor detail?
Many thanks.
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Not quite right yet.
You need to set your Google Drive link to'Public'.At the moment we can't open it. However, I've looked at the video on the Camden website and it shows a grey van turning right and driving past a Flying Motorbike sign. The sign is mounted very high up so may well be out of a drivers line of sight. In addition as it's a RH turn, we would expect an advance sign before the turn.
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My apologies, I didn't realise (despite reading the 'READ THIS FIRST' before posting notice) about the video nor about blanking out the vehicle details. Nor am I hugely technically minded but I think I've finally managed to work out how to link the video.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F3XBvhHqPcRfadpn8s9y6vCWPLQC3Ht1/view?usp=drivesdk
Failing the drive link not working here is the PCN without the relevant details blanked out
https://ibb.co/VY45mc9Z
I hope this is now all correct & I am really grateful for any advice anyone is able to give.
😊
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bump please?
Perhaps do as Stamfordman asked?
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bump please?
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Post the video. I can't as you've blanked the details.
Hi stamfordman, sorry if I've not done something right but could you tell me which video it is that you want me to post? Are you talking about the video footage evidence that is on the Camden council web page?
Re blanking details - which details is it you need to see as I've only blanked out the vehicle registration and address from the PCN plus the vehicle registration in the photo. If your referring to the restriction time plate, when I went back to the 'scene of the crime' it was outside restriction hours so the sign was closed/blanked over.
Please let me know and many thanks for your time...
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Post the video. I can't as you've blanked the details.
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Good evening all....
Back again to seek help from coughing up £80 for a PCN that came in the post.
This time it's for entering a road with restrictions. I believe this restriction sign is relatively new in place, definitely post Aug 2025 anyway. The person driving the car at the time drives for a living so recalling the reasons as to why they missed the signs are a bit hazy and frankly, I'm pretty sure Camden Council wouldn't give 2 hoots as to why the driver missed the signs anyway. I'm just wondering if the size and placement of the warning signs are adequate.
Doing a quick search shows this is an 18 month Healthy Schools Street trial, I have downloaded the extremely long public notice.
Link here if it is of any importance
https://ibb.co/yFRTnb7t
Google maps last view date is in 2025 without any restrictions.
This is the location link
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Fa9quBTpoxA21Viy5
Approaching eastbound on E Heath Road before the right hand turn into Holford Road is a warning sign on the left hand side of the road, quite small in my opinion and the printed time restrictions are only readable if you were to actually park in the road and get out to read them. Past that, once you veer right into Holford Road, is another warning sign same size as the one before the right hand turn. Proceeding down Holford Road where the bend is, is the actual restriction sign. There is only one on the left hand side of the road, none on the right hand side. Do they not need to have one either side of the road? I have since visited the area to check the signage and to take pictures but was outside the restriction times so the detail on the plate is not visible. I've screenshot a photo taken from Camden Councils web page instead.
Link to photo's here
https://ibb.co/jBnvFQZ
https://ibb.co/ZRjW0M0J
https://ibb.co/5dS660p
I was also wondering if the PCN itself meets all it's legal requirements, does it not need to show a contravention code?
Link to pcn here
https://ibb.co/XxfNRtGT
Any advice as always from this forum is extremely appreciated especially as the driver earns a pittance as it is and can well do without £80 disappearing down the proverbial.
Many, many thanks to all.