Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: hirerspcn on December 05, 2023, 05:23:54 pm
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Thanks cp. I have to state that this was a hard won case. If another adjudicator had heard it, it would have been a formality. I shall say nothing more. But, one of our loyal members observed. 8) Of course, I am just a dilettante.
We are all just human. But, I am not paid to know the law!
I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.
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Full outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Uab63buwUh-wfCy2LJpBi028uWzHIekb/view).
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Decision Date 27 Mar 2024
Adjudicator Monica Hillen
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Enforcement Notice.
Reasons
The case was scheduled for a personal appeal on 26 March at 14.30. Mr **** did not attend, his representative did so, Mr Morgan. The Enforcement Authority was not represented.
Mr Morgan served a Notice on the Enforcement Authority requiring the attendance of two witnesses, L Maynard and S Lloyd the latter being the officer who looked at the CCTV evidence and made a written statement [which did not identify the camera].
The Notice was served on the Council on 16 March 2023 and acknowledged. The Enforcement Authority informed the Tribunal on 19 March they were not obliged to attend.
The Notice of Rejection set out the rights of the Appellant with regard to the evidence for an appeal.
“If you appeal we will send you a copy of all our evidence as soon as possible and must provide you with a copy of any DVD, photograph or digital image that we want the Adjudicator to consider at least seven days before the scheduled date of the hearing.
However, if you serve a notice on us not less than three days before the hearing date, we cannot rely on such evidence without the person(s) who signed them attending. The three[1]day limit may be varied by the Adjudicator in special circumstances.”
As the relevant witness did not attend the camera evidence is not admissible. The appeal is allowed.
*********************
2240089033
Dear Sirs
I make the following submissions on behalf of the appellant:
1. The council has adduced no valid primary evidence to prove its case.
2. Similarly, its Notice of Rejection contains little information which is of any evidential value.
3. Lastly, neither does the Witness Statement prove its case.
In light of the above, I ask that the appeal be allowed.
******************
Congratulations for staying the course. ;)
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Greatly appreciated.
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@Hippocrates see these cases:
Perinpanayagam Thileepan v Royal Borough of Kingston Upon Thames (2210486067, 9 October 2021) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kXzveBWU2jCtIPDhrYDpPQotUCi3qmXU)
Anjum Vahora v London Borough of Newham (2230470161, 18 December 2023) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xcpvvMeibRYURHnpi14SNuLWN44Vmxx3)
Stanmore Quality Surfacing Ltd v Royal Borough of Kingston Upon Thames (2230545781, 22 January 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Yd2915G08XjH6qO57IbEMCGdEjNNCPlx)
If they've only provided an amending order you can certainly run the argument, though there's no guarantee all adjudicators would accept it.
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https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lfd_ecu1KMng82-Pests4854tVZrPAnw/view
This is the only TMO supplied.
see page 5:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/walthamforest-34-being-in-a-bus-lane-high-road-leyton-(bus-lane)-e10/msg17659/#msg17659
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I will PM you my details.
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Thanks for your reply.
You said in a previous reply you can represent me in tribunal. I would happily accept your offer, what should I do from my end?
Also for the form that came with the rejection letter, is there a certain way for it to be filled? Can it be filled online? I do not want to accidentally write something wrong.
Thanks
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I would say go to the Tribunal. Pretty good chance of winning in my view.
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Yes the images they have provided are 100% incorrect, which i have linked to the location.
When you say “up to you”, what do you mean? Do i have other options?
I would prefer the best option.
Thanks
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If you are certain those images are wrong, then you have a strong case. Also, their reply to the camera certification is nonsense. Up to you as to whether you want to go to the Tribunal and I am happy to take this one on free of charge. Neither have they addressed the 958 warning sign.
I would say Tribunal time.
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Somewhat odd parking restrictions, so until we see the PCN, it is difficult to give advice as so much depends on times the OP was there.
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I have received a reply by post. [Notice of Rejection of Representation]
Page 1: https://i.ibb.co/5hmLFJR/IMG-3435.jpg
Close Up Images (Page 1): https://i.ibb.co/7QcKmBp/IMG-3437.jpg
Page 2: https://i.ibb.co/WBtCsyv/IMG-3436.jpg
Page 3: https://i.ibb.co/RvPKnV3/IMG-3438.jpg
Page 4: https://i.ibb.co/ZcnCpW8/IMG-3439.jpg
Page 5: https://i.ibb.co/rskYQtN/IMG-3440.jpg
Page 6: https://i.ibb.co/n7rYdxZ/IMG-3441.jpg
Page 7: https://i.ibb.co/t3Vmq4F/IMG-3442.jpg
I have 2 issues with this letter, so I could use some help understanding this.
1. The supplementary images supplied by WF is not where the alleged contravention occurred.
The first image the location is here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5599898,-0.0090291,3a,75y,135.66h,79.54t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1spYPqPMsZfwQ5W3X8E0INcQ!2e0!5s20220401T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
The second image, the location is here but there is no bus sign (must have been put up after Google street view April 2022):
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5600559,-0.0093074,3a,32.9y,92.91h,89.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOvtIJRw1einu3d8f237kGQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
2. Where WF have provided a link to the CCTV certificates page (https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/neighbourhoods/crime-and-community-safety/closed-circuit-television-cctv), i found a map where there is no CCTV icon on the map of the alleged contravention.
Map here: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1oF0-Wgbo0jNq0i0D5dGfuQLOxPnxgVy_&ll=51.59749104335556%2C-0.012309149999998326&z=13
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One minute. I will give you their e-mail address.
WFPCN@nsl.co.uk
They will need the PCN and VRM details plus your name and address. Tell them you made reps. on such date and have not received a reply yet and ask for confirmation.
They can also be called.
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Alright many thanks.
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One minute. I will give you their e-mail address.
WFPCN@nsl.co.uk
They will need the PCN and VRM details plus your name and address. Tell them you made reps. on such date and have not received a reply yet and ask for confirmation.
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Any news? They have just DNCed one case.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/walthamforest-34-being-in-a-bus-lane-high-road-leyton-(bus-lane)-e10/msg8713/#msg8713
Hi, I have sent off my appeal a while ago but I have not heard back from the council.
I checked my emails and I have not received a receipt for my appeal. How do I know the if the council have received my appeal?
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The TMO will be an issue possibly plus the number of bus lanes.
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Any news? They have just DNCed one case.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/walthamforest-34-being-in-a-bus-lane-high-road-leyton-(bus-lane)-e10/msg8713/#msg8713
This bit is on the previous stretch of the road. My PCN was for the stretch which is after the current bus lane.
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Any news? They have just DNCed one case.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/walthamforest-34-being-in-a-bus-lane-high-road-leyton-(bus-lane)-e10/msg8713/#msg8713
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Dear Sirs
Ref: PCN VRM
I make these formal representations against the PCN and EN:
1. The PCN does not adequately express the location.
2. The inclement weather at the time of the alleged contravention caused me not to see any warning signage.
3. The video does not show any sign to diagram 958 allegedly passed. So, in this respect, it does not prove the alleged contravention.
4. I put you to strict proof that you have the correct camera authorisation.
In light of the above, please cancel the PCN and EN.
Yours faithfully
Name
Address
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Sorry for the late reply.
Page 1: https://i.ibb.co/FJpb8GH/IMG-3359.jpg
Page 2: https://i.ibb.co/G74Y4DM/IMG-3362.jpg
Page 3: https://i.ibb.co/3k8rFXH/IMG-3363.jpg
Page 4: https://i.ibb.co/whjT1Mf/IMG-3364.jpg
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And the rest of it please.
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To whom was this PCN sent? May as well wait for the Enforcement Notice now and I will advise later. Do not write to them at this stage.
Meanwhile, do some research and find out how many bus lanes there are on this road.
I have received the enforcement notice.
Image: https://i.ibb.co/2FD2wGc/IMG-3359.jpg
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It is the next stage in the process. The 14 days allowed period (though not legally stipulated) in which to make a challenge has now passed.
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This pcn was originally sent to my hire car company, they then transferred the pcn to my name at my address.
What is the enforcement notice?
There is only 1 bus lane.
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To whom was this PCN sent? May as well wait for the Enforcement Notice now and I will advise later. Do not write to them at this stage.
Meanwhile, do some research and find out how many bus lanes there are on this road.
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Here is the PCN that was sent via post.
Page1: https://i.ibb.co/b6Q1sKP/IMG-3305.jpg
Page2: https://i.ibb.co/t83mLQg/IMG-3306.jpg
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Thanks. Still need the PCN. Until I see it:
1. Put them to strict proof re camera authorisation.
2. 959 sign is not readable in the video. For the benefit of the OP: the second sign.
3. Weather etc
Re 1: a live appeal to be heard very shortly has some interesting information from the council in this regard.
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so, what is the marked bay for that the OP pulled up in??
Either a bus stop or something else. I am working on an idea. BUT: we need to see the whole of the PCN first and see the details of what happened.
My idea will be somewhat technical.
It is not a bus stop but a parking bay, timed restrictions. I have put the location in the first post.
Here are some images:
https://i.ibb.co/crxJ0RG/IMG-0862.png
https://i.ibb.co/GpSfVCR/IMG-0864.jpg
Images are from Google maps street view dated April 2022
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so, what is the marked bay for that the OP pulled up in??
These appear to be the marked bays
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Gv3stZ6y4Wz1iekr5
https://maps.app.goo.gl/TSyt3yYtEnNPHY4F7
And these the times of 'bus lane operation (all images Apr2022)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/SFW8UYSxPQ8obEAEA
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so, what is the marked bay for that the OP pulled up in??
Either a bus stop or something else. I am working on an idea. BUT: we need to see the whole of the PCN first and see the details of what happened.
My idea will be somewhat technical.
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so, what is the marked bay for that the OP pulled up in??
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Sorry. I missed that at the end. Let me think about a redraft.
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Sorry but I am bit confused. In the video it shows bus lane sign. How can this help my appeal.
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Yes re the first point clearly.
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I have not appealed yet as I was waiting for the PCN to be addressed to me. I have now received the PCN.
I have also checked the PCN online and there is a video viewable now. Does this mean that the appeal from the previous reply will be valid?
Video here: https://youtu.be/c3tdaolPeHg
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Dear Waltham Forest
I challenge the PCN on the following grounds:
1. The images associated do not show any signage allegedly passed.
2. There is no video in support of the allegation.
Therefore, please cancel the PCN as your evidence supplied hitherto does not prove the alleged contravention.
P.S.: I put you to strict proof that you have the proper certification for the camera involved.
Yours faithfully
Name
Address
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Any advice or what i can do to appeal?
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Done that.
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There isn’t a video. Click on the tab labelled images. That’s where you will see the images.
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I cannot access the video. It doesn't play.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/walthamforest-34-being-in-a-bus-lane-high-road-leyton-(bus-lane)-e10/msg8713/#msg8713
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I am a private hire driver working for uber etc..
I was picking up an elderly person at this location and unfortunately I couldn’t get ahold of them by telephone. After a few minutes I managed to connect with them and picked them up.
I am not able to post the PCN yet as I have not received it by post, but my hire company has notified me by email of this PCN.
PCN Number: FR61081375
Reg: LR20 EVB
Location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/rEAmf4vdZv1es8NV6?g_st=ic
Images: https://walthamocm.itsvc.co.uk/