Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Hodor51 on June 27, 2023, 10:11:27 am
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I would apply for costs actually. See what cp says. If he disagrees, I am happy to make an application on your behalf. No cost or risk involved.
This is just another example of a council not adducing evidence, forcing one to go to the Tribunal and I say this conduct meets the threshold of wholly unreasonable. Barking and Dagenham are another.
I bet you were in and out in 3 minutes!?
Well done for sticking with it. ;)
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Dear all,
Pleased to confirm that following attendance at the hearing this morning, the adjudicator has confirmed that as the council failed to provide any evidence, they're upholding my appeal!
Thanks all that supported and gave advice! I can now enjoy my weekend and glad to no longer have this hanging over me
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I was just contacted back by the tribunals office and was told the following:
- The hearing will go ahead
- The Council have provided no evidence and the adjudicator will make a decision based on my evidence alone (photos of the signs within sight of my vehicle and my representations)
- I don't need to attend unless I want to
- I will be informed of the outcomes within 1 working day of the decision being made
Any advice?
**edit** Just received another phone call from the LTO from another member of staff (16:50) confirming that the council hasn't provided evidence, and the adjudication will go ahead as normal with no requirement for me to attend. They even said the outcome does look favourable to me but it isn't a foregone conclusion.
I'll wait for a response from this forum before making a decision to attend or not.
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Call the Tribunal and ask if the council have adduced their evidence.
Just got off the phone, the person I spoken to told me that she had rang reception and that the person there had said that this might be a "no evidence case" but couldn't guarantee it. They are going to look into it more and I've been told that they will ring me back and update me once they find out any more information.
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Call the Tribunal and ask if the council have adduced their evidence.
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Morning, just check the appellant portal again this morning and I've still not received anything in the post and nothing further has been uploaded to the portal itself. No further emails have been received either in relation to the tribunal scheduled to take place tomorrow.
I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything here? I'm looking in all the right places and there isn't anywhere else where the council may have sent their evidence pack to?
Thanks
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There used to be/still is? a practice direction about evidence being filed less than 3 days before a hearing and subsequent decisions. Even less than 4 days before the hearing.
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Thanks again. Nothing still having checked on the appellant portal this morning. I'm not relying on the pack getting to me by post as having local issues with the Royal Mail and post delivery being delayed by a number of days.
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Appreciate that CP - as of this morning there has still been no evidence provided by the council
You'll have to check every day between now and Friday.
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Appreciate that CP - as of this morning there has still been no evidence provided by the council
The clock is ticking. You should also receive their pack direct from them, of course. Glad you are potentially getting cp involved. :)
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Appreciate that CP - as of this morning there has still been no evidence provided by the council
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2230463337 is listed for 11 am, I have another hearing at that time so if the case is contested I'd have to move it first. In any case I'd want to see the evidence pack before agreeing to take this on.
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Honestly, didn't know it was an option. The support received so far has been excellent, didn't realise it extended beyond that.
Having read the thread, I suggest that you ask cp to do so if he is free as he is the foremost expert on this forum.
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Honestly, didn't know it was an option. The support received so far has been excellent, didn't realise it extended beyond that.
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Just by way of update, I'm now checking the portal daily. The council has yet to respond or provide any additional evidence. I will update if and when the council responds
Good to hear. I do not wish to appear to be rude; but, have you considered asking one of us "lay representatives" to represent you?
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Just by way of update, I'm now checking the portal daily. The council has yet to respond or provide any additional evidence. I will update if and when the council responds
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OK, so now you just need to let us know if / when the council contests the case.
Don't rely on the post, just check the tribunal portal once a week or so. in the last 10 days before the hearing, check every day. If they upload something very late you can call up the tribunal and get a reschedule, the tribunal gives up to two reschedules of up to 28 days administratively, no questions asked.
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Ok that's good to know. My case doesnt currently appear but I'm guessing cos its only showing the next couple of weeks. My hearing is on the 2nd of December.
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Just aware these are public forums...we're encouraged to keep names and personal correspondence private when sharing correspondence, i dont know if tribunal details are easily searched or open to the public so perhaps I'm being overly cautious but if it has no bearing I'm happy to share the date
There is a thing known as the open justice principle, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_justice and https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/open-justice-the-way-forward/call-for-evidence-document-open-justice-the-way-forward
Hence all tribunal listings are public, anyone can go to https://londontribunals.org.uk/ and click on "View the daily list of appeals" and look up all upcoming cases.
The council already knows about the hearing because the tribunal will have sent them a notification.
Given that I can't be bothered to go through the daily case list to find your case on the tribunal website, the only people who are now in the dark are the people on this forum who are trying to help you...
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Just aware these are public forums...we're encouraged to keep names and personal correspondence private when sharing correspondence, i dont know if tribunal details are easily searched or open to the public so perhaps I'm being overly cautious but if it has no bearing I'm happy to share the date
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You don't want to say then...
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Beginning of December
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Why don't you just tell us when the hearing is?
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Ok, thanks. I'll check the case appeal case regularly and will post here if sent.
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The next step is for the council to provide their evidence pack to the adjudicator, which you'll have access to (if they fail to do this, you win by default).
Your task at the tribunal is to responding to whatever they put in that pack, so for now all you need to do is keep an eye out for it, and post here when it's available.
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Morning all,
Received the following response following my appeal to the tribunal:
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Thank you for your appeal which was received on 18th October 2023.
The hearing will take place on: [date] at [time] at London Tribunals, Chancery
Exchange, Ground Floor North, 10 Furnival Street, LONDON, EC4A 1AB.
This will be your opportunity to explain your appeal to the Adjudicator. Any witness that you wish to
call should attend with you. If a witness is unable to attend the hearing, you should provide a
statement from that witness.
Prior to your hearing, please read the leaflet on the appeal process and procedures which can be
found on our website at https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/environment-and-traffic-adjudicators-your-
appeal.
If you would prefer to take part in the above hearing by telephone, please email
LT.Reception@londontribunals.gov.uk by return, providing your telephone number and the telephone
number of your representative, or any witness you are calling. Please quote your case reference
number in the email subject. Please do not use this e-mail address for any other queries.
If you are unable to attend your hearing, either in person or by telephone (if indicated), the Adjudicator
will consider your case based on the evidence that you and the Enforcement Authority have provided,
and you will be notified of the decision.
We have sent a copy of your appeal to the Enforcement Authority. The authority is unlikely to
participate in the hearing. You should receive a copy of the Enforcement Authority’s evidence directly
from the authority at least three days before the hearing. If you have been issued a verification code
by the Enforcement Authority you may also view the evidence via the appellant portal on our website.
If you require any further assistance or information about this matter, please do not hesitate to contact
London Tribunals either by telephone or in writing using the contact details at the top of this letter.
Please quote your Case Reference Number, 2230463337, in all communications.
An independent tribunal for environment, parking and traffic penalty appeals
Environment and Traffic Adjudicators are supported by London Tribunals, a service provided by London Councils
Calls to London Tribunals may be recorded
Case Management Team
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Any advice that can be provided on what I can do at the hearing will be much appreciated. Hearing is at the start of December.
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Hi there,
Just as an update I've made the appeal via the link provided, chosen to represent myself and chosen to attend any hearing. I believe I shall hear within the next 7 days. (Unsure if this is calendar or working).
Will update further once I hear back
Thanks again
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Always ask for a hearing, there's literally zero advantage in going for a postal decision.
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Hi,
When putting through it asks about a representative and also my appeal hearing and as to whether or not I want to take part in the hearing or if I want the appeal considered in my absence? Is there any recommendation on what I should do in this instance?
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As I said earlier, just appeal with "I rely on my formal representations" and let's see what they respond with. You can always add more detailed grounds later on, once you've seen the council's evidence pack.
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Thanks for your response on this matter.
The first representation was made within 14 days but I think I was outside the 14 days for the 2nd (although I don't think that was abundantly clear on correspondence they sent, not that it matters).
Is there any advice you can give on the next appeal, or am I effectively duplicating what I've already said in my previous representations?
Thanks again.
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Well if they've not reoffered the discount there's no point in paying now, you might as well appeal. The time limit for the council to respond to your representations is 56 days, they're well within that.
The rejection was probably sent by post because there is no clear law on whether a notice of rejection sent by email is legally served, at least absent prior agreement, so it's what virtually all authorities do by default.
It might be that the discount was not reoffered because you didn't make both the first and second representation within 14 days.
In the circumstances I'd suggest you go onto https://londontribunals.org.uk/ and register an appeal with "I rely on my formal representations" and you want and see what turns up in the evidence pack. We know they have the right photos to prove their case, but whether they'll put them in front of the adjudicator is another matter.
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Afternoon,
I've finally received notification (dated 26th September, received by mail today) that my representations have been rejected and I now have 28 days from the date of the letter to pay the fine of £130.
I also received two pictures (look like they're both of the same sign) of signs in Oakfield Road (place of alleged contravention) and information about my right to appeal and a notice of appeal form.
Links to letter below:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dNN8kN0jhq4xcRzzrU9d8hk5Zg5JTRwM/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dYxZTGi7PNqMWaxRpHAZwTHA_pDWWM9T/view?usp=drivesdk
A few questions, probably because I'm curious to know more than anything:
1) Do councils have a time limit to respond to these appeals, akin to the time limits MOPs receive to respond to these letters?
2) Any reason why this wasn't sent in an email as these did with my last appeal rejection?
3) A lot of the wording in the letter is cut off, I suppose, like last time, this wont have any effect on appeals etc
4) I've been told to pay £130 rather than the original £65. Is there a reason for this or could it be down the appeal against the first rejection being outside of the normal 14 day window.
Thanks in advance
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As long as representations are received by the council this week, the discount should be reoffered. If there are photos of the signs that you would have passed and those photos show the signs were there a few days before, then in the absence of anything to suggest otherwise most adjudicators would make a finding of fact that the signs were there to be seen when you drove past (and in all honesty this is probably the case).
You could ask for photos in the representations, or you could just make a plea for discretion.
I can't see any faults in the Notice to Owner but wait for others to comment (but don't wait past the discount deadline).
Ok thank you. Challenge made with request for evidence again.
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As long as representations are received by the council this week, the discount should be reoffered. If there are photos of the signs that you would have passed and those photos show the signs were there a few days before, then in the absence of anything to suggest otherwise most adjudicators would make a finding of fact that the signs were there to be seen when you drove past (and in all honesty this is probably the case).
You could ask for photos in the representations, or you could just make a plea for discretion.
I can't see any faults in the Notice to Owner but wait for others to comment (but don't wait past the discount deadline).
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Not what I'm saying. When issuing the PCN, surely there should be a picture of the sign which states its a event day alongside the picture of the sign that says parking restrictions are in force on event days as part of the evidence?
Except you are saying this is what they would have to do, because the event day signs are at all the entrances to the applicable zone yet the location of the contravention is somewhere within the zone so which sign was passed is unknown. Indeed, there is actually no legal requirement for any photos at all. So if you claim the sign didn't show it was an event day, it would be up to you to demonstrate this. Remember, the criminal standard of proof is not followed, it is the civil test of "on the balance of probabilities".
Ok understood, unfortunately proving this would now be impossible. The only evidence in possession would be photos of the immediate vicinity.
Once the notice to owner has been reviewed, if advice on next steps could be provided that would be very much appreciated. A further appeal will be made.
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Not what I'm saying. When issuing the PCN, surely there should be a picture of the sign which states its a event day alongside the picture of the sign that says parking restrictions are in force on event days as part of the evidence?
Except you are saying this is what they would have to do, because the event day signs are at all the entrances to the applicable zone yet the location of the contravention is somewhere within the zone so which sign was passed is unknown. Indeed, there is actually no legal requirement for any photos at all. So if you claim the sign didn't show it was an event day, it would be up to you to demonstrate this. Remember, the criminal standard of proof is not followed, it is the civil test of "on the balance of probabilities".
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OP, you posted:
I requested evidence that signage was present on the day in which the alleged contravention occurred. No such evidence was provided and the photo you have obtained was taken on a different date.
Are you saying that the signs are at the location where you entered the CPZ? If so, the fact that they have taken them on a different day is to their credit, isn't it, because this means they have given drivers ample notice. Let's be clear, an adjudicator would find on the balance of probabilities that because they were there on or about 4 May then they were there on 14 May. The burden of showing they were not would fall to you IMO.
No, not at all. On the evidence the council has provided me directly on the PCN, there is no evidence that there was signage present on the day. Only that the sign they've take a picture of stated that it was a controlled zone on Sundays from Noon-430pm on event days. Nothing to say (on the evidence they've provided me) that it was in fact an event day.
My argument is (and I'm no legal expert so please correct me I'm wrong), for the PCN to be enforced, that they need to provide evidence that the correct signage was present upon entry to the zone, on the date in which the PCN was issued, not 10 days prior to the alleged incident. Who's to say that the sign could have been removed within those 10 days?
Additionally, the only evidence they've provided is that they've said in the letter that there was signage. Do we just take them on their word for this?
You are saying that for every event day the council must take a photo of all the signs referring to event days just in case somebody gets a PCN. Frankly you just won't get this argument accepted. The adjudicator judges on "the balance of probabilities", so if the council submits library photos of the signs with a signed statement these signs are present and correct that is all they need to do.
Not what I'm saying. When issuing the PCN, surely there should be a picture of the sign which states its a event day alongside the picture of the sign that says parking restrictions are in force on event days as part of the evidence?
Regardless, would like some advice on next steps regarding the appeal against the notice to owner please?
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OP, you posted:
I requested evidence that signage was present on the day in which the alleged contravention occurred. No such evidence was provided and the photo you have obtained was taken on a different date.
Are you saying that the signs are at the location where you entered the CPZ? If so, the fact that they have taken them on a different day is to their credit, isn't it, because this means they have given drivers ample notice. Let's be clear, an adjudicator would find on the balance of probabilities that because they were there on or about 4 May then they were there on 14 May. The burden of showing they were not would fall to you IMO.
No, not at all. On the evidence the council has provided me directly on the PCN, there is no evidence that there was signage present on the day. Only that the sign they've take a picture of stated that it was a controlled zone on Sundays from Noon-430pm on event days. Nothing to say (on the evidence they've provided me) that it was in fact an event day.
My argument is (and I'm no legal expert so please correct me I'm wrong), for the PCN to be enforced, that they need to provide evidence that the correct signage was present upon entry to the zone, on the date in which the PCN was issued, not 10 days prior to the alleged incident. Who's to say that the sign could have been removed within those 10 days?
Additionally, the only evidence they've provided is that they've said in the letter that there was signage. Do we just take them on their word for this?
You are saying that for every event day the council must take a photo of all the signs referring to event days just in case somebody gets a PCN. Frankly you just won't get this argument accepted. The adjudicator judges on "the balance of probabilities", so if the council submits library photos of the signs with a signed statement these signs are present and correct that is all they need to do.
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OP, you posted:
I requested evidence that signage was present on the day in which the alleged contravention occurred. No such evidence was provided and the photo you have obtained was taken on a different date.
Are you saying that the signs are at the location where you entered the CPZ? If so, the fact that they have taken them on a different day is to their credit, isn't it, because this means they have given drivers ample notice. Let's be clear, an adjudicator would find on the balance of probabilities that because they were there on or about 4 May then they were there on 14 May. The burden of showing they were not would fall to you IMO.
No, not at all. On the evidence the council has provided me directly on the PCN, there is no evidence that there was signage present on the day. Only that the sign they've take a picture of stated that it was a controlled zone on Sundays from Noon-430pm on event days. Nothing to say (on the evidence they've provided me) that it was in fact an event day.
My argument is (and I'm no legal expert so please correct me I'm wrong), for the PCN to be enforced, that they need to provide evidence that the correct signage was present upon entry to the zone, on the date in which the PCN was issued, not 10 days prior to the alleged incident. Who's to say that the sign could have been removed within those 10 days?
Additionally, the only evidence they've provided is that they've said in the letter that there was signage. Do we just take them on their word for this?
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Please see notice to owner in link below:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JIhjW8asWG-zf_sZSkzfRymynUGFiGQi/view?usp=drivesdk
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OP, you posted:
I requested evidence that signage was present on the day in which the alleged contravention occurred. No such evidence was provided and the photo you have obtained was taken on a different date.
Are you saying that the signs are at the location where you entered the CPZ? If so, the fact that they have taken them on a different day is to their credit, isn't it, because this means they have given drivers ample notice. Let's be clear, an adjudicator would find on the balance of probabilities that because they were there on or about 4 May then they were there on 14 May. The burden of showing they were not would fall to you IMO.
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Please post up all sides of the NtO, so it can be checked for errors.
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If you wait for the Notice to Owner and make formal representations within 14 days of the date of issue, they will re-offer the 50% discount even if they reject, so it's arguable that you might as well have another go. If you're lucky, they might make a procedural error along the way.
Hi there,
Just to update that I received the notice to owner in the post this afternoon. Please can you advise on next steps?
I realised that in my original representations, I requested evidence that signage was present on the day in which the alleged contravention occurred. No such evidence was provided and the photo you have obtained was taken on a different date. Does this hold any substance at all or would I request the evidence again in my next formal representations or make note that no such evidence was provided on request?
Thanks
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Ok thank you
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If you wait for the Notice to Owner and make formal representations within 14 days of the date of issue, they will re-offer the 50% discount even if they reject, so it's arguable that you might as well have another go. If you're lucky, they might make a procedural error along the way.
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Yes V5 is up to date. I think today is the last day i can pay the reduced fees. Given the latest photos they've provided is there a case here? I really dont remember seeing this signage upon entry to the area (as focusing on the road in front of me but i guess that's what they count on) and unfortunately i dont have camera footage or anything to back myself up
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Latest photos from the council:
(https://i.imgur.com/I3QjiX2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/aNoMlLs.jpg)
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I have gone back and asked if they have photos of the signs you would have passed, I should have double check but it's now obvious that the photos they've provided are of some other location.
Obviously the next step is to wait for the Notice to Owner, assuming you have the V5C and the address is up to date?
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Correspondence that I sent should be in the thread above.
Original PCN
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T_nri7iJq4qhDjShqNSaj7zzAZSOjgTQ/view?usp=sharing
I've now received a response from Haringey and they have decided not to cancel the PCN. I've attached the letter and redacted name and address. Please let me know if you need me to copy and paste the text from the letter onto the thread?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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In the first instance please post all the documents on here so everything is in one place please.
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Please post up the PCN and any other documents sent / received on here.
The response from the council to my EIR request is below:
Please find attached time stamped pictures of signs taken on the 4th of May 2023. Photos taken as part of record keeping for when the ‘next events’ sign plates were installed; informing of events scheduled for the 14th and 28th of May 2023
(https://i.imgur.com/nxqf2rn.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZBje92A.jpg)
What are your thoughts on this response @cp8759? Personally, I'm not sure if evidences either way that signs were present on or near Oakfield road? Unless there is alternative evidence that they can provide. Although, the evidence they have and also the additional picture of another sign on Oakfield Road that I took a picture of, doesn't show the signage demonstrated in the response to the EIR.
I'm guessing we'll have to wait and see what their response is to my challenge? Is there a time limit to which they have to respond to the challenge legally?
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Link to previous post on Pepipoo is:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149864&hl=Haringey
PCN re-attached below
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52905243743_fa20db8b05_k.jpg)
Written representation copy below:
Dear Sir/Madame,
I'm writing to challenge the PCN issued to my vehicle (14/05/2023 / GV66 KEU). I'm providing representation on the grounds that I believe the ticket was issued incorrectly/there was procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority. As the evidence shows, the signage stated that it was a resident's permit holders only from Noon-4.30pm on Sundays and Public holidays but this was on Match and event days only. Upon parking, I didn't observe any signage in the immediate vicinity, other than the photos taken as evidence by the Enforcement officer, to inform me that it was a match day.
There is no evidence on the photos of any signs stating that the 14th May 2023 was an event day and parking restrictions were in force. If there were, please provide me with evidence of such signage that is date and time stamped at the time of the alleged contravention.
If the evidence is not readily available, given the above, I believe the PCN should be cancelled.
Sincerely,
Adam Pearson
As of this morning, I've received no response to this and have saved a screen grab (inc. date and time) that shows no update
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Please post up the PCN and any other documents sent / received on here.
The response from the council to my EIR request is below:
Please find attached time stamped pictures of signs taken on the 4th of May 2023. Photos taken as part of record keeping for when the ‘next events’ sign plates were installed; informing of events scheduled for the 14th and 28th of May 2023
(https://i.imgur.com/nxqf2rn.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZBje92A.jpg)
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At the very leeast you need a link to the thread at Pepipoo.
See
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
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Posting a summary thread on request.
Received PCN 14th May for parking without a valid permit.
Have subsequently challenged on basis of procedural impropriety
Have yet to receive a response from the council.
Please let me know if any further information is needed from me or if the above will suffice
Thanks.