Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: twigtwig on November 24, 2023, 10:33:09 pm
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Both tickets cancelled, thanks.
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Reps submitted - will update when I have news.
Thank you.
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Hello - before I submit representations, any comments etc would be appreciated.
Looks all right to me; don't miss the deadline for submission
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Hello - before I submit representations, any comments etc would be appreciated.
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Hello all,
I was planning to submit the two formal responses to the Notice To Owners for the two tickets. To note there are two tickets here - the first one (EA59368572) - which wasn't attached to my car, and the second which was (EA59388853).
Any feedback/suggestions would be warmly received. I will look to submit these representations once we have feedback etc through.
Thanks,
Mark
TICKET 1 EA59368572
Formal Representations In Response To Notice To Owner
Penalty Charge Notice: EA59368572
Vehicle Registration Number: CX65 NJE
I am writing to request that this PCN is cancelled on the following grounds:
i. Procedural Impropriety
I am appealing because the Ealing Council website did not work correctly when renewing my permit. I received an email from Ealing Council on 21st Sept, telling me I needed to renew my permit, reference - EAX1108243. I did this, on Wednesday, 13 Sep at 19:55. I believed that I had renewed my permit, as the payment appeared to go through, I approved the payment on my mobile banking app and the website appeared to take payment successfully. I continued to park my car as usual, and I assumed that the new permit would begin on 19/10/23.
However, on 22nd November I found I had a ticket attached to my car (this was a separate ticket – which was issued on 22nd November – ticket ref EA59368572 was not attached to my car). On checking my online account, it appears that the permit was not issued. I called Parking Services on 23rd November, and the advisor I spoke advised that the council did have problems with their payment processor in Sept / October and this could have meant that the payment did not go through. I checked my bank statement, and it shows that in fact the payment was not taken. She advised as this was a known issue, helped me renew the permit and suggested that I appeal this ticket, and that the council would likely cancel the ticket.
I have now purchased a replacement permit (Ref: EAX1315940). I hope that you can see from the evidence that I submitted, that I was under the impression that my permit had been renewed on Sept 13th.
I have gone back to the council, and asked that they put this in writing, and they have now said that the person that I spoke to was not aware there was a general problem, but could see my application and that payment wasn’t taken.
I have attached the following as evidence:
-a. Screenshot of the transaction from my mobile banking app
-b. Screenshot from Ealing Parking Permit Portal which shows two valid permits
-c. Email from parking services, which confirms that I attempted to renew my permit
ii. The alleged offence did not occur
I also wish to appeal on the further grounds that the alleged offence did not occur. The CEO has recorded the offence as 12r. However, I believe that this is the incorrect wording and therefore the alleged offence did not occur.
Code 12r - 'Code description: Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone without either clearly displaying a valid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place, or without payment of the parking charge.'
However, I notice in the Civil Enforcement Officers Handbook V2a, it suggests 'If a previously valid permit has expired then code 19 should be issued.'
Code 19 wording is as follows: 'Code description: Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone either displaying an invalid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket - or after the expiry of paid for time.'
I therefore suggest that the offence did not occur, and the PCN should be cancelled on these grounds.
Yours faithfully,
________________________________________________________________
TICKET 2 EA59388853
Formal Representations In Response To Notice To Owner
Penalty Charge Notice: EA59388853
Vehicle Registration Number: CX65 NJE
I am writing to request that this PCN is cancelled on the following grounds:
i. Procedural Impropriety
I am re-stating the grounds which I made in my informal appeal which I made on 23rd November.
I am appealing because the Ealing Council website did not work correctly when renewing my permit. I received an email from Ealing Council on 21st Sept, telling me I needed to renew my permit, reference - EAX1108243. I did this, on Wednesday, 13 Sep at 19:55. I believed that I had renewed my permit, as the payment appeared to go through, I approved the payment on my mobile banking app and the website appeared to take payment successfully. I continued to park my car as usual, and I assumed that the new permit would begin on 19/10/23.
However, on 22nd November I found I had a ticket attached to my car. On checking my online account, it appears that the permit was not issued. I called Parking Services on 23rd November, and the advisor I spoke advised that the council did have problems with their payment processor in Sept / October and this could have meant that the payment did not go through. I checked my bank statement, and it shows that in fact the payment was not taken. She advised as this was a known issue, helped me renew the permit and suggested that I appeal this ticket, and that the council would likely cancel the ticket.
I have now purchased a replacement permit (Ref: EAX1315940). I hope that you can see from the evidence that I submitted, that I was under the impression that my permit had been renewed on Sept 13th.
I have gone back to the council, and asked that they put this in writing, and they have now said that the person that I spoke to was not aware there was a general problem, but could see my application and that payment wasn’t taken.
I have attached the following as evidence:
-a. Screenshot of the transaction from my mobile banking app
-b. Screenshot from Ealing Parking Permit Portal which shows two valid permits
-c. Email from parking services, which confirms that I attempted to renew my permit
ii. The alleged offence did not occur
I also wish to appeal on the further grounds that the alleged offence did not occur. The CEO has recorded the offence as 12r. However, I believe that this is the incorrect wording and therefore the alleged offence did not occur.
Code 12r - 'Code description: Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone without either clearly displaying a valid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place, or without payment of the parking charge.'
However, I notice in the Civil Enforcement Officers Handbook V2a, it suggests 'If a previously valid permit has expired then code 19 should be issued.'
Code 19 wording is as follows: 'Code description: Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone either displaying an invalid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket - or after the expiry of paid for time.'
I therefore suggest that the offence did not occur, and the PCN should be cancelled on these grounds.
Yours faithfully,
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No, keep to one thread, because the second PCN is for the same contravention. It looks like you can claim continuous contravention and request that the later PCN be cancelled.
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Just a follow up - what is best etiquette here - should I make another thread / post on the site for the second ticket?
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Hi all. I received a second Notice To Owner today...
On checking - it looks like two tickets have been issued on consecutive days.
There was only one ticket on my car, which was for 22/11.
I have a NTO now for two tickets,
Ticket A - NTO 03/01/2024 - date of alleged offence 22/11/2023
Ticket B - NTO 22/12/2023 - date of alleged offence 21/11/2023
Do I need to make a separate post for this second ticket?
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The letter should end "yours faithfully" instead of your ending, as there is no named addressee
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Hello Incandescent,
I've drafted by representations to the NTO. Any feedback etc would be welcomed.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1hgstcm2v26gyubyunzfg/Formal-Representations-In-Response-To-Notice-To-Owner.docx?rlkey=d8mpu6jxtu72ab3d34gwi4w47&dl=0
Thank you,
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Well, obviously you submit reps against the NtO using the information on the payments system bug, (their email). If they refuse this, then you take them to the adjudicators, London Tribunals. This would be a "wholly unreasonable" refusal of reps, so would satisfy the requirements of a costs award against them.
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Hello all and happy new year.
The Notice To Owner has arrived (please see link below). Please advise on best next steps.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/l7bs2rgorwaf5we15evqg/Notice-to-Owner-Redacted.pdf?rlkey=u9y5i1b3voe4btvbj21ybuarc&dl=0
Thanks and best, Mark
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PCN still active and requesting payment online.
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Clearly that email needs to be your main evidence.
Have you checked the PCN status since that was received ?
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Hi all - had this reply today from a different person at the council.
'Thank you for your email. I have noted what you have said and I am sorry. I am unaware that there was a general problem but I can see that your payment was not taken. May I apologise for any inconvenience,
Kind regards'
Thoughts on next steps?
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CP - Just FYI - I have requested this in writing from the council.
I'll wait until the NTO arrives so that I can appeal this ticket. Thank you.
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When I spoke to the person at the council, they said that there was a bug in their payment system, which meant that some transaction etc did not complete, so no money was taken from my account.
If this can be proven then the case is open and shut, as the council are responsible for any bugs in their system. So you need to call the council back and try and get this confirmed in writing.
We could go down the Freedom of Information route, but that could take weeks if not months, while if you get someone to drop you an email we could get what we need in a couple of days.
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Hello CP,
That is the crux of the issue. I did not have anything from the council saying the payment was processed I don't think. I renewed on the website, approved teh transaction on my phone and was taken to a confirmation page, which said that my permit had been renewed.
I saw there was a transaction on my bank account.
However, when investigating the transaction says 'declined'. When I spoke to the person at the council, they said that there was a bug in their payment system, which meant that some transaction etc did not complete, so no money was taken from my account.
Please see screenshot of the transaction from my Monzo account.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Well if you had some sort of confirmation from the council that the permit had been renewed, I don't see how there can be any obligation to carry out any further checks, after all how often should you check? Every day? Every hour? Where would you draw the line?
If you had something saying the permit had been renewed, that's the end of the matter as far as I can see.
As for the 12 vs 19 issue, it's worth arguing but it's one of those things that could go either way, depending on the adjudicator on the day.
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I noticed this that evening, called the Council Parking Department on 23/11 first thing, and I was advised that there was an issue with their payment system not taking payments in the month of September, which could have caused the issue with payment/renewal.
Did you get that in writing?
If not, call back and ask them to put in in writing to you.
What would those who have experience in this area suggest the odds of having the ticket overturned would be?
If you can prove what happened, I'd say almost 100%.
But what evidence do you have about your permit renewal, did you get a confirmation email? Or do you have any screenshots?
Hello CP! I did not get that in writing - it was discussed on the telephone. The person I spoke to did say that they'd make a note of it, so I will telephone back on Monday and ask them to reply to that so that I have it in writing.
With regard to the renewal of the permit, I have the transaction on my Monzo bank account. It says 'Declined', next to it - which I didn't notice to be honest - I went ahead and completed the renewal forms, and approved the transaction on my phone and it looked as if it all went ahead. I'll check if I had a confirmation email. However there was clearly a problem somewhere - as the payment wasn't taken and the permit wasn't renewed. It was not due to lack of funds - as other transactions were processed that day, and my balance is in credit.
However, in their rejection, the council have said that it is on the motorist to check that they have a valid permit. However - I can prove that I did at least try to renew it prior to it's expiry.
With regards to my second point, about the incorrect charge code (12 vs 19) - do you think this too would be grounds for cancellation of the ticket?
Thank you all.
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I noticed this that evening, called the Council Parking Department on 23/11 first thing, and I was advised that there was an issue with their payment system not taking payments in the month of September, which could have caused the issue with payment/renewal.
Did you get that in writing?
If not, call back and ask them to put in in writing to you.
What would those who have experience in this area suggest the odds of having the ticket overturned would be?
If you can prove what happened, I'd say almost 100%.
But what evidence do you have about your permit renewal, did you get a confirmation email? Or do you have any screenshots?
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It would be ab abuse of process for the council to persue this PCN, as it as their own IT system that appeared to take your money and didn't.
I do agree Incandescent - and so did the telephone operator who renewed the permit with me - so I was surprised that they rejected this and so quickly as well!
My thought process is to wait for a NTO - and submit a formal challenge. Hopefully this will result in the penalty being cancelled. If not then the discount should be re-offered correct?
If rejected, I could take this to the London Tribunal, who would be able to provide an impartial hearing.
My grounds for appeal would be:
-I was led to believe that I had renewed the permit. The operator in the parking department said that there was an error with the payment processing system which did result in some payments not being taken.
-The code is incorrectly listed - the CEO has listed a code 12r - Code description: Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone without either clearly displaying a valid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place, or without payment of the parking charge. The Civil Enforcement Officers Handbook V2a, suggests 'If a previously valid permit has expired then code 19 should be issued.'
'Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone either displaying an invalid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket - or after the expiry of paid for time.'
Do you think that there is anything else that I am missing? What would those who have experience in this area suggest the odds of having the ticket overturned would be?
Thank you.
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It would be ab abuse of process for the council to persue this PCN, as it as their own IT system that appeared to take your money and didn't.
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You're not at 'appeal', the Notice to Owner stage awaits first.
Could we have a simple timeline pl:
Previous permit expired on:
Reminder email from council to renew permit sent on:
Your attempt to renew permit on:
Your new permit is effective from:
PCN issued on:
Re-offered discount expires: 8 Dec.
Then we can overlay this with what the council's website says about the renewal process e.g. how is a successful transaction indicated if at all, is this an open or closed-loop process, what obligations fall to the motorist and which to the council etc.
Then another layer of whether you continued to park in local and applicable resident's bays without issue for the period from expiry of previous permit to date of PCN, pl confirm.
Good afternoon HC Anderson. Thank you for your message.
Previous permit expired on: 18/10/2023
Reminder email from council to renew permit sent on: 21/09/2023
Your attempt to renew permit on: 13/09/2023
Your new permit is effective from:23/11/2023
PCN issued on: 22/11/2023
Re-offered discount expires: 8 Dec.
I had a calendar reminder that the permit expired, so tried to renew in the renewal window, but before the automated email was sent out. It looked like the transaction went through - I assumed it had. I continued to park in the residents bay outside my house, like I have done for the last 12 months. The first (and only) ticket for having no valid permit was issued on 22/11. I noticed this that evening, called the Council Parking Department on 23/11 first thing, and I was advised that there was an issue with their payment system not taking payments in the month of September, which could have caused the issue with payment/renewal.
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You're not at 'appeal', the Notice to Owner stage awaits first.
Could we have a simple timeline pl:
Previous permit expired on:
Reminder email from council to renew permit sent on:
Your attempt to renew permit on:
Your new permit is effective from:
PCN issued on:
Re-offered discount expires: 8 Dec.
Then we can overlay this with what the council's website says about the renewal process e.g. how is a successful transaction indicated if at all, is this an open or closed-loop process, what obligations fall to the motorist and which to the council etc.
Then another layer of whether you continued to park in local and applicable resident's bays without issue for the period from expiry of previous permit to date of PCN, pl confirm.
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Hello all. I received a parking ticket two days ago. I thought I had renewed my permit, but the payment did not go through. I spoke to the council parking department yesterday to see what was going on and to re-renew the permit. They admitted that there were faults with the payment processing service in September when I was trying to renew, and that I should be able to just submit an appeal showing I did have a permit, I had tried to renew it and that this was a known issue.
I submitted this to them as an appeal, but have just received a rejection.
Copy of ticket, informal appeal and rejection letter attached here.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/na2woyab2dvnatp/AACFyo-hoEaN6xlEGMqnGk6ja?dl=0
I would be interested to know if this ticket is contestable. I think it could well be - I looked at the code used for the offence - which is 12r
'Code description: Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone without either clearly displaying a valid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place, or without payment of the parking charge.'
However, I notice in the Civil Enforcement Officers Handbook V2a, it suggests 'If a previously valid permit has expired then code 19 should be issued.'
Code 19 wording.
'Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone either displaying an invalid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket - or after the expiry of paid for time.'
Please advise, do you think these would be suitable grounds for appeal?