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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: MLA_81 on November 23, 2023, 04:02:09 pm

Title: Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red Route or Clearway)
Post by: H C Andersen on January 11, 2024, 03:48:49 pm

So we've got all the facts:
Why were you there in the first place if the cakes were not ready? You posted 'I stopped to collect com cakes from a cake shop..' which sounds almost spontaneous but it couldn't be because you apparently had an expectation that something which you had pre-ordered would be ready!

Did you return later to collect?

Where did you park on this occasion?

And what was the number, size etc. of the cakes?
Title: Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red Route or Clearway)
Post by: MLA_81 on January 11, 2024, 03:35:26 pm
I would say about 30 min.

I went into the shop and told its not ready yet, went back to the car waited for a bit before returning to the shop again. As the cakes were still not ready I decided to leave.

when leavcing i had no bag unfortunately as the cakes were not ready!

Thanks

Regards
Title: Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red Route or Clearway)
Post by: H C Andersen on January 08, 2024, 03:47:22 pm
Yes, the covering letter with the DVD will explain.

If one's going to engage in delaying tactics then at least make best use of the time!

You were parked for longer than 20 minutes.

How much longer?

Why were you sitting in your car for most of the time? (On its own it does not (on its own this doesn't suggest you knew anything about the cake c**k-up buy merely waiting

What will the DVD show - you'll know, you were there? You stopped, exited(let's say as if the collect something), you returned shortly afterwards, you sat in your car, you then exited the car again and returned with what can be seen to be a substantial load and not, let's say, merely a carrier bag.
Title: Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red Route or Clearway)
Post by: MLA_81 on January 08, 2024, 03:06:37 pm
I gather that this is a dead end from an FOI perspective, but yet to receive the footage of the infraction. Should I chase them or just wait?

do you know if they notify me when they remove the hold on the PCN?

Many thanks
Title: Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red Route or Clearway)
Post by: H C Andersen on January 05, 2024, 03:20:04 pm

What utter nonsense:

TfL has been refusing to release any information that would allow any of our ‘Digital Traffic Enforcement System’ cameras to be identified....

...in response to:

There is a CCTV camera outside 85-87 Lee High Rd, London, SE13 5NS, which is visible here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/sxDmH5cWax5m6Yyh9


I think the 'allowing ....cameras to be identified..cat is already out of the bag and sitting on top of a post situated outside 85-87 Lee High Road!
Title: Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red Route or Clearway)
Post by: MLA_81 on January 05, 2024, 02:12:22 pm
Hi Team

Apologies, see below the response

TfL Ref: FOI-3065-2324

 

Thank you for your request received by Transport for London (TfL) on 27 November 2023 asking for information about a CCTV camera outside Lee High Road.

 

Your request has been considered in accordance with the requirements of the Environmental Information Regulations (EIR) and our information access policy. I can confirm we hold the information you require.

 

However, your request is being refused under Regulation 12(4)(b) of the EIR on the basis that it is ‘manifestly unreasonable’. Please see the rationale set out below.

 

We have received a large number of requests from different applicants asking for the exact same information in respect of different cameras. TfL has been refusing to release any information that would allow any of our ‘Digital Traffic Enforcement System’ cameras to be identified given the widespread instances of vandalism that some of these cameras have been subject to since the expansion of the Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ). The rationale for this is as set out under a previous request for similar information, published on our website here:

 

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0970-2324

 

If the exceptions cited in the reply above were only ever applied to requests for information about the ANPR cameras used to enforce ULEZ, but not other cameras on the road network operated by TfL, then that would defeat the purpose of the exceptions applying – i.e. if that were the approach, then any time a request was refused then this would, in effect, identify our ANPR cameras. Therefore, the exceptions apply to all of our road camera infrastructure, so that the specific cameras used to enforce ULEZ cannot be distinguished from other cameras via FOI / EIR requests.

 

The use of the exceptions cited in the reply above have been challenged under Internal Review by other applicants, and the result of those reviews were that the use of the exceptions were upheld. In turn, an applicant has subsequently lodged an appeal on three separate occasions with the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) which is currently being considered by that body. The ICO will determine whether or not it agrees with TfL’s reliance on these exceptions. In the meantime, TfL stands by its use of the exceptions.

 

Given the above, TfL now considers that any current and future requests asking for information on the make and models of our roadside cameras be exempted as ‘manifestly unreasonable’. There is no public benefit in rehearsing the same arguments that are already before the ICO. As such, we believe that the current series of requests, which have an identical template-style wording and therefore appear to be part of a co-ordinated campaign, are ‘manifestly unreasonable’ because they represent:

 

Frequent or overlapping requests
Unreasonable persistence on matters which have either been resolved or are already before the Information Commissioner
Appear to lack serious purpose or value
Appear designed to cause disruption and disproportionate burden
 

We do not believe that the greater public interest is served by TfL considering each such case on an individual basis while the matter remains before the ICO.

 

Please see the attached information sheet for details of your right to appeal.

 

Yours sincerely,
Title: Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red Route or Clearway)
Post by: H C Andersen on January 05, 2024, 09:33:55 am
+1.

A response will be sent to you by 27 December 2023.

OP, this response pl.
Title: Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red Route or Clearway)
Post by: cp8759 on January 05, 2024, 12:02:21 am
@MLA_81 I don't think you've posted the FOI response, that looks like the acknowledgment email?
Title: Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red Route or Clearway)
Post by: MLA_81 on December 27, 2023, 12:47:01 pm
Hi

I hope you had a great christmas

I have recieved a response from TFL rearding the request to provide details about the camera used under FOI right.

Unfortunately they rejected the request under Regulation 12(4)(b) of the EIR on the basis that it is ‘manifestly unreasonable’; see below the full response

"TfL Ref: FOI-3065-2324

 

Thank you for your request received by Transport for London (TfL) on 27 November 2023 asking for information about a CCTV camera outside Lee High Road.

 

Your request will be processed in accordance with the requirements of the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act and our information access policy.

 

A response will be sent to you by 27 December 2023. We publish a substantial range of information on our website on subjects including operational performance, contracts, expenditure, journey data, governance and our financial performance. This includes data which is frequently asked for in FOI requests or other public queries. Please check http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/ to see if this helps you.

 

We will publish anonymised versions of requests and responses on the www.tfl.gov.uk website. We will not publish your name and we will send a copy of the response to you before it is published on our website.

 

In the meantime, if you would like to discuss this matter further, please do not hesitate to contact me.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Mary Abidakun

FOI Case Officer

FOI Case Management Team

General Counsel

Transport for London
"
Title: Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red Route or Clearway)
Post by: MLA_81 on November 27, 2023, 11:24:27 am
many thanks @cp8759

I have actioned the instructions above, and the penalty has been put on hold

Appreciate your help and guidance

Can I please ask if there is a way to change my username? I checked and it looks like I may need to delete the profile and create a new one, which I would assume would also need a new thread/topic .

Thank you
Title: Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red Route or Clearway)
Post by: cp8759 on November 25, 2023, 01:34:05 pm
@larbiamma@gmail.com you need to do two things:

1) Call TFL on 0343 222 3333 and ask for the video, they will send a DVD in the post and put the penalty on hold while you wait. Until we know what the video shows, we don't know the strength of TFL's case.

2) Send this to foi@tfl.gov.uk:

Dear Transport for London,

There is a CCTV camera outside 85-87 Lee High Rd, London, SE13 5NS, which is visible here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/sxDmH5cWax5m6Yyh9

I would like to request the make and model of the camera please.

Also please provide any documentation confirming the make and model of the camera.

Yours faithfully,


Assuming you do this before 5 pm on Monday, put a reminder in your calendar to chase up TFL for an FOI response on 28 December.
Title: Re: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red Route or Clearway)
Post by: Daim456 on November 23, 2023, 10:39:10 pm
Quote from: larbiamma@gmail.com on November 23, 2023, 04:02:09 pm


1- I stopped to collect cakes for my family so it wasn't business reason, but I thought loading does not necessarily mean business loading only.
2- I stopped within the 10am-4pm window (11:06 to be precise)
3- I may have overstayed the 20 min limits as the cakes were not ready
4- I was in my car waiting for most of the time I was there.



Kind regards

You can phone TfL to send the DVD video in the post and ask them to put this PCN on hold.

The loading can be used for personal reasons, it does not have to be done by business.

As you said you were in your car waiting for the cake to be ready but that was not loading. The loading must be continously and you must move your car once the loading was done but it looks like you were not loading at all.

You could ask them for discretion.
Title: TFL Red route PCN 46: (Stopped While Prohibited on a Red Route or Clearway)
Post by: MLA_81 on November 23, 2023, 04:02:09 pm
Hi All

I hope you are all doing well,

I recently received a TFL PCN due to stopping in a Red route and I hope you can help me understand what options are available to me to appeal the penalty if there are any.

Summary of Contravention:
-Alleged Contravention: 46: Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)
-Contravention Location: O/S 57-73 LEE HIGH ROAD SE 13
-Contravention Date: On 10/11/2023 at 11:06.
"The contravention was seen and recorded by camera Operator number 139 who was observing real-time pictures from an approved device at the time stated and has been recorded on digital storage media"

I stopped to collect com cakes from a cake shop outside: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Go4Y7HcTGDP84sQ26

The sign states: No stopping Mon-Sat 7am - 7pm Except 10am-4pm Loading Only

1- I stopped to collect cakes for my family so it wasn't business reason, but I thought loading does not necessarily mean business loading only.
2- I stopped within the 10am-4pm window (11:06 to be precise)
3- I may have overstayed the 20 min limits as the cakes were not ready
4- I was in my car waiting for most of the time I was there.

the PCN was issued by TFL CCTV and sent to me in the post, there is no mention of the Council.

I have seen some similar topics in the forum and it seems that these penalties were deemed illegal, and are currently under review, so surprised they are still issuing them.

Is there any hope in fighting this or do I just lump it and pay up?

Many thanks for your valuable advice/assistance with the matter

Kind regards

(https://i.imgur.com/xoJpMiU.png)

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