3. Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
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Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
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Another PCN received from Redbridge council for entering and stopping in a Yellow Box Junction.

I was turning left into Horns Road and as the traffic moved I thought I had enough space to enter and exit the YBJ. Admittedly the rear right tyre is still in the box as I stopped behind traffic but most of my car is out and seems a bit harsh since I am not affecting the flow of traffic which is the purpose of the YBJ.

Any grounds for appeal?


Council video:



PCN:
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« Last Edit: February 28, 2024, 08:08:47 pm by syd16 »
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Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
« Reply #1 on: »
Looks like a pretty good worked example in a training session for adjudicators of what de minimisin a box junction means ! The PCN is money-grubbing PCN we see far too often. However the council, venal and rapacious as ever, are unlikely to give way, so you'd have to take them to London Tribunals and risk the full PCN penalty. And as de minimis is subjective, (no definition of it, you just know it when you see it), you could well lose.
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Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
« Reply #2 on: »
The whole PCN please.
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I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
« Reply #3 on: »
You weren't committing an offence if there was enough room for you to move forward a few inches and clear the box.  Due to the level of glare in the video it's very hard to confirm if you could or couldn't have done this.  As well as de minimis I'd also challenge on this ground.
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Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
« Reply #4 on: »
Thanks for the replies.


Quote from: Incandescent on February 28, 2024, 08:15:09 pm
Looks like a pretty good worked example in a training session for adjudicators of what de minimisin a box junction means ! The PCN is money-grubbing PCN we see far too often. However the council, venal and rapacious as ever, are unlikely to give way, so you'd have to take them to London Tribunals and risk the full PCN penalty. And as de minimis is subjective, (no definition of it, you just know it when you see it), you could well lose.

OK, I agree it's harsh and it's a cash cow for the council but just wanted to know if it's worth the risk of paying out the full penalty. Any previous experience of such de minimis cases and whether it's been won at Tribunal?



Quote from: Hippocrates on February 28, 2024, 09:43:29 pm
The whole PCN please.

Attached below.


Quote from: MrChips on February 28, 2024, 11:39:46 pm
You weren't committing an offence if there was enough room for you to move forward a few inches and clear the box.  Due to the level of glare in the video it's very hard to confirm if you could or couldn't have done this.  As well as de minimis I'd also challenge on this ground.

Sorry a bit unclear on this argument. Are you saying that if there was room in front me to move into but I am still stationary in the YBJ then does that mean I wouldn't be committing an offence?


For a de minimis challenge, what would I state as my reasons for challenging the PCN, is there a template I can use?

Thanks,


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Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
« Reply #5 on: »
@syd16 we need the PCN number and number plate in order to give proper advice.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
« Reply #6 on: »
PCN: AF98214426
REG: YD22 FVH
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Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
« Reply #7 on: »
Well we could have tried something with this but as you've paid it's too late.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
« Reply #8 on: »
It’s a lease car and the leasing company automatically paid the charge but said I can still appeal within the timeframe (which has now passed) but I didn’t get a response here in time so didn’t bother.
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Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
« Reply #9 on: »
Quote from: syd16 on April 01, 2024, 12:06:42 am
It’s a lease car and the leasing company automatically paid the charge but said I can still appeal within the timeframe (which has now passed) but I didn’t get a response here in time so didn’t bother.
@syd16 it doesn't work like that, by paying the penalty the lease company has removed your right to appeal. The lease company may well say that you can still appeal, but that's because they're morons and have no idea how any of this works: once the penalty is paid the council can laugh all the way to the bank and any challenges go straight in the bin.

It's a pity as we can pretty much beat 99% of lease car cases.

If it's a personal lease you can force them to take the hit on this, as depriving you of the right to appeal by paying the penalty is a breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015. I'm happy to help you with that if you'd like to pursue it.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
« Reply #10 on: »
My thoughts exactly, I don't understand how I could have appealed it once they already paid the fine. It is a personal lease.

How do I proceed and what would be involved if I pursue it?
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Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
« Reply #11 on: »
Have you paid the £65 to the lease company already?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
« Reply #12 on: »
They've told me it would be added as an additional charge (£65 penalty + £15 administration) to my account which would come out of my usual lease payment next month.
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Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
« Reply #13 on: »
Quote from: syd16 on April 01, 2024, 01:34:17 pm
They've told me it would be added as an additional charge (£65 penalty + £15 administration) to my account which would come out of my usual lease payment next month.
Is the lease paid by direct debit?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
« Reply #14 on: »
Yes it’s paid by direct debit.
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