Author Topic: Possible Procedural Impropriety on NoR - can someone confirm for me?  (Read 1496 times)

0 Members and 27 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Possible Procedural Impropriety on NoR - can someone confirm for me?
« Reply #15 on: »
Out of curiosity, the PCN says that the contravention falls under the LLA & TfL Act 2003.

I noticed this is slightly different to the TMA 2004 legislation when it comes to detailing what a NoR must state. The 2004 Act is clearer, the 2003 Act seems a little more vague and generalised.

Can arguments that lean towards the 2004 act be made, e.g. the NoR states the incorrect Charge Certificate amount and misleads regarding the financial impact of the charge.

Does the fact the PCN falls under the 2003 Act disadvantage this arguement?

For clarity:
- The PCN was for £80 discounted, £160 after discounted, and £240 in the event of no action via a Charge Certificate

- The NoR is for £80 discounted, £160 after discount, and increases from £130 to £195 in the event of no action via a Charge Certificate

The £130 to £195 figure is wrong, and should say £160 to £240 instead.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2025, 09:55:00 am by GRYOUT »

Re: Possible Procedural Impropriety on NoR - can someone confirm for me?
« Reply #16 on: »
Left this a couple of days ago as OP had not posted any documents, despite requests and promises.

Now just daft questions.

Shouldn't have bothered looking again! :o
« Last Edit: June 27, 2025, 12:54:49 pm by Neil B »

Re: Possible Procedural Impropriety on NoR - can someone confirm for me?
« Reply #17 on: »
They can't withdraw the NoR and issue a new one. You're entitled to rely on what it says. But if it makes you feel more secure then register an appeal with the independent adjudicator. Put "detailed submission to follow" in the relevant box.

Registering an appeal might trigger a DNC, Do Not Contest.

Is this for certain? Is there any way they could send me another (valid) NoR that supersedes the first one? Is there any workaround on the council's side that they can rely on to invalidate the first NoR once they're aware of their mistake?

I'm wondering if I need to wait to file the appeal with London Tribunals, or if I can just file it now knowing the council has no recourse or power to fix the mistake once it come to light. I.e. can they say they didn't issue a valid NoR as it was defective and treat it as no notice at all in effect, and then issue another one that's not defective?

Re: Possible Procedural Impropriety on NoR - can someone confirm for me?
« Reply #18 on: »
Left this a couple of days ago as OP had not posted any documents, despite requests and promises.

Now just daft questions.

Shouldn't have bothered looking again! :o
Haven't managed to scan it as of yet. I'll ensure to do it this evening or by tomorrow at the latest.

There's me thinking I was asking a smart question  ::) . Just trying to understand the legislative application to the PCN.


Re: Possible Procedural Impropriety on NoR - can someone confirm for me?
« Reply #19 on: »
They can't withdraw the NoR and issue a new one. You're entitled to rely on what it says. But if it makes you feel more secure then register an appeal with the independent adjudicator. Put "detailed submission to follow" in the relevant box.

Registering an appeal might trigger a DNC, Do Not Contest.

Is this for certain? Is there any way they could send me another (valid) NoR that supersedes the first one? Is there any workaround on the council's side that they can rely on to invalidate the first NoR once they're aware of their mistake?

I'm wondering if I need to wait to file the appeal with London Tribunals, or if I can just file it now knowing the council has no recourse or power to fix the mistake once it come to light. I.e. can they say they didn't issue a valid NoR as it was defective and treat it as no notice at all in effect, and then issue another one that's not defective?
The clock is ticking with the Adjudicator. The window to submit an appeal is determined with reference to the date of service of the Notice of Rejection that you currently have. There is a time limited validity code on the NoR which you will need to use.

I advised you to submit an appeal. State that a detailed submission will follow. You could add that the Notice of Rejection is defective as mandatory information concerning the amounts due are incorrectly stated and that this is potentially prejudicial.

Registering an appeal will buy you some time to refine your argument about a defective NoR. The Council will have to respond with their evidence as it stands now. Not with what they might wish they had sent.

To get started with refining your argument please post up the documents previously requested.

If you don't get an appeal registered then you run the risk of timing out, the council will then serve a charge certificate adding 50% to the amount due. And you will have no option but to pay it.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2025, 01:56:14 pm by Enceladus »

Re: Possible Procedural Impropriety on NoR - can someone confirm for me?
« Reply #20 on: »
@GRYOUT Why all this cloak and dagger stuff?
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Possible Procedural Impropriety on NoR - can someone confirm for me?
« Reply #21 on: »
Haven't managed to scan it as of yet. I'll ensure to do it this evening or by tomorrow at the latest.

You can just take pics on a mobile phone?
We don't even know if you've registered an appeal yet?

Re: Possible Procedural Impropriety on NoR - can someone confirm for me?
« Reply #22 on: »
Haven't managed to scan it as of yet. I'll ensure to do it this evening or by tomorrow at the latest.

You can just take pics on a mobile phone?
We don't even know if you've registered an appeal yet?
Made the appeal to London Tribunal. Highlighted incorrect charge on the NoR. Council cancelled the PCN upon reviewing evidence in the appeal portal. I didn't upload the paperwork here as it really looked like a slam dunk and didn't want to bog you guys down with what seemed like an easy win.

Re: Possible Procedural Impropriety on NoR - can someone confirm for me?
« Reply #23 on: »
Well done, and thanks for letting us know the outcome

Re: Possible Procedural Impropriety on NoR - can someone confirm for me?
« Reply #24 on: »
Well this cloak and dagger approach has hardly helped others, has it?
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Possible Procedural Impropriety on NoR - can someone confirm for me?
« Reply #25 on: »
Well this cloak and dagger approach has hardly helped others, has it?

Couple things... First off - Given firms (public and private) are upskilling and leveraging data, I do genuinely question how long it'll be until councils are scouring forums such as these to try and get ahead of the community. If I were working on the other side, I'd be checking these spaces regularly and running a few AI Agents through new posts to train the systems to be smarter and tight up any loopholes, which is partially why I held off publishing the official docs. I'd really like to see a portal that's somewhat locked down or restricted in access that people can upload their docs to without it being so easily available on the clearnet.

Secondly, Whilst drip-feeding info to you isnt the most helpful, pls know I'm hugely grateful for all of your help.

Have written up an events-based timeline below. Hope this helps others. Anything else of interest just let me know.

The main points listed below:

Contravention: 53C - Driving down a School Street during restricted hours. Council: Sutton
1) PCN: Received PCN 7 days after contravention.

2) PCN Appeal: Made representation to council 3 days later. Requested PCN be cancelled as contravention was a first-time mistake.

3) NoR: Received NoR 1 day later. Noticed NoR incorrectly referenced pre-April full charge/uplift amount (£130 -> £195) instead of £160 -> £240 when describing effects of no action/response to NoR. Researched using GPT-o3, Claude, Perplexity. Created appeal to be filed later to Lon.Trib

4) NoR Appeal: Waited 24 days to respond to the NoR. My understanding of the rule is council must issue one valid NoR within 56 days. If I say the NoR is invalid, and the council agree, they could then technically argue a valid NoR has yet to be issued, and may be within their rights to issue another NoR (this time without a mistake in it). There's nothing in the 2003 Act that says only one NoR may be issued. The wording is that only one valid NoR may be issued. Key word here valid. I'm aware this is contrary to some views in this thread. I couldn't confirm for sure on the stance here so decided to at least draw out the process for 24 days which would have given them a little less of the 56 days to respond, if indeed that was an option available to them. I think the 2004 Act tightens things up a bit.

Filed to London Tribunals the following.
Quote
The NoR must warn that a charge certificate will be served unless you pay or appeal within 28 days, and it must describe the effect of that certificate - i.e. the penalty increases by 50% of the full charge.

1. Wrong financial uplift: Schedule 1, (5)(1) states that a charge certificate increases the penalty by 50% (one-half). Sutton’s full penalty for this contravention is £160, so the Charge Certificate amount specified in the NoR should be £240. The NoR instead warns of an increase from £130 to £195. It therefore mis-states a mandatory statutory consequence.

2. Wrong timing statement: Schedule 1, (3)(a) requires the NoR to say that a charge certificate may be served unless, before the end of 28 days, I pay or appeal. The NoR received says the a Charge Certificate may be sent before 28 days, implying it can act during that 28-day window. This reverses the statutory sequence and is potentially misleading.

Because the NoR fails on both the amount and the timing required by Schedule 1, it is invalid. That is a clear procedural impropriety and the penalty charge exceeds the amount permitted by law. I ask the adjudicator to allow the appeal and cancel the PCN.

5) DnC: Council filed a Do not contest 1 week later.