Author Topic: Watford Way, TfL, Red Route parking  (Read 3336 times)

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Re: Watford Way, TfL, Red Route parking
« Reply #15 on: »

However some councils don't bother enforcing on some Bank Holidays but never announce this. I presume it's to save the CEO wages.

LB of Barnet kindly put on line which parking restrictions are / are not enforced on Bank Holidays.

https://www.barnet.gov.uk/parking/parking-and-traffic-enforcement/parking-restrictions#title-1

Re: Watford Way, TfL, Red Route parking
« Reply #16 on: »
@I-LOV-MONEY some councils might use their discretion not to enforce on bank holidays, but legally they could. TFL enforces every days of the year without exception, as they are legally entitled to.

That being said, in Transport for London, R (on the application of) v London Tribunals (Environment and Traffic Adjudicators) [2023] EWHC 2889 (Admin) the High Court said that in order to enforce with a CCTV camera, there must be an upright sign regardless of whether there are single or double red lines, so there's an arguable case on that point as the DRLs have no upright sign.

Furthermore, TFL tends to post the PCNs the day after the date printed on the face of the notice, which is also a procedural impropriety.

And as a general rule TFL will extend the discount even at the tribunal stage, as long as the tribunal tells them about the appeal while the discount is still available.

So, in terms of next steps, I suggest you call TFL first thing on Monday on 0343 222 3333 and ask for the video, they will send you a DVD in the post. In the meantime I'll get hold of the traffic order.

In some way or another we've managed to beat every red route PCN since the judicial review, something always seems to crop up.

And for what it's worth, I have seen signs that say "Except bank holidays", from memory I think there are some in the City of London.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Watford Way, TfL, Red Route parking
« Reply #17 on: »
@cp8759  Thank you for joining this post.

@  That being said, in Transport for London, R (on the application of) v London Tribunals (Environment and Traffic Adjudicators) [2023] EWHC 2889 (Admin) the High Court said that in order to enforce with a CCTV camera, there must be an upright sign regardless of whether there are single or double red lines, so there's an arguable case on that point as the DRLs have no upright sign.

There are upright signs in each of the parking bays noting the specific restriction.  I believe that the signs also have an image of a camera on them.  I will check.

Quote
Furthermore, TFL tends to post the PCNs the day after the date printed on the face of the notice, which is also a procedural impropriety.


I cannot prove what day the letter was sent / received.


Quote
So, in terms of next steps, I suggest you call TFL first thing on Monday on 0343 222 3333 and ask for the video, they will send you a DVD in the post. In the meantime I'll get hold of the traffic order.

The PCN says that if I wish to view the CCTV footage, it has to be at a TfL office, by writing to them in Darlington.  Where are their offices?  Still images "or a copy of the recording can be sent to you"  Is a copy of the recording not the same as CCTV footage?  Again I have to write to TfL, but it does say "the penalty charge will be placed on hold whilst this is being processed."  Do they start from 28 days again? 

Quote
In some way or another we've managed to beat every red route PCN since the judicial review, something always seems to crop up.

Keep up the good work!!

*The formating of this reply is a little strange!  I hope it looks better once I post.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2024, 12:15:56 am by I-LOV-MONEY »

Re: Watford Way, TfL, Red Route parking
« Reply #18 on: »
There are upright signs in each of the parking bays noting the specific restriction.  I believe that the signs also have an image of a camera on them.  I will check.
@I-LOV-MONEY I don't believe there are any upright signs for the DRLs themselves.

I cannot prove what day the letter was sent / received.
The audit trail that TFL provides to the tribunal normally confirms this.


The PCN says that if I wish to view the CCTV footage, it has to be at a TfL office, by writing to them in Darlington.
Forget about what the PCN says, please call TFL on Monday and ask for the video. They will put the penalty on hold and send you a DVD in the post. We've been doing this a very long time and we know how this works.

Nothing you do is completely guaranteed to stop the clock, so you must make representations by 15 September to preserve the discount.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Watford Way, TfL, Red Route parking
« Reply #19 on: »
@cp8759
Thank you.  I will ring them tomorrow.

I think the 21 days from 22 August (date of the notice) will be 11 September?

When I receive the video, what am I looking for?

Re: Watford Way, TfL, Red Route parking
« Reply #20 on: »
When I receive the video, what am I looking for?
@I-LOV-MONEY the 21 days run from the date of service of the notice, which is two working days after posting.

Once you have the video upload it to a google drive or dropbox folder so that we can take a look.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Watford Way, TfL, Red Route parking
« Reply #21 on: »
IMO,

According to the 2-year old GSV this length of road consists of:

DRL - with whatever prohibition applies;
A white box (box 1) in which the RR restriction is Mon-Sat etc. with given exceptions on the bottom panel of a 3-panelled sign;
Another separate white box(box 2) - indicated by the parallel markings at right-angles to the kerb- with the same RR prohibition but different exceptions indicated on a 2-panel sign.
Further DRL.

The discrepancy between the two boxes is clear: one has 3 panels, the other has 2.

The prescribed form of a RR sign - anywhere on a RR - consists of THREE panels (Schedule 6 TSRGD and TSM Chapter 3, s16 refer which are:
Top: RED ROUTE
Middle: Times of prohibition;
Bottom: Exceptions.

Where there are NO exceptions, as on most plain and simple double RR, then the bottom panel 'may be omitted'.

A marked box indicates exceptions and therefore:
As regards the first box, a sign must be placed because there's a change to the prohibition from what preceded the box; and

This sign must consist of 3 panels, which it does.

As the exempted activities apply for the whole of the prohibited hours the box must be marked white, which it is.

As regards box 2, the sign is incorrect because exemptions can only be signed on a 3-panel sign.

But apparently the OP was not in box 2, they were parked on DRL beyond therefore it follows that there should be an upright 2 or 3-panel sign to indicate the prohibition which applies.

What TfL appear to have done is to imagine that the preceding RR prohibition continues naturally once the limits of the box have been passed.

Nonsense.

So in this short stretch of RR IMO we have:

DRL - with whatever prohibition applied at that point, let's say prohibition 1;

Box 1 with part-time prohibition 2 which operates as shown;

Box 2 - incorrectly signed, so a length of RR in its own right improperly signed. As such I don't know whether the markings should be white or red;

DRL - but no upright sign which there must be IMO because this is a RR prohibition in its own right. So what exemptions, if any, apply?

TfL seem to think that whatever applied to the RR before box 1 must necessarily apply to DRL after box 2.

IMO, wrong if for no other reason than the RR prohibition immediately preceding the OP was tnat in box 2, which was improperly signed.

Can the OP use this to their advantage?

OP, sorry to write at such length but I felt I should set out my reasoning in full.

As I read Schedule 18 TSRGD reference to d)making a reference to a bank or public holiday. is acceptable.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2024, 04:10:35 pm by H C Andersen »

Re: Watford Way, TfL, Red Route parking
« Reply #22 on: »
DRL - but no upright sign which there must be IMO because this is a RR prohibition in its own right. So what exemptions, if any, apply?

TfL seem to think that whatever applied to the RR before box 1 must necessarily apply to DRL after box 2.

IMO, wrong if for no other reason than the RR prohibition immediately preceding the OP was tnat in box 2, which was improperly signed.

Can the OP use this to their advantage?

OP, sorry to write at such length but I felt I should set out my reasoning in full.
I'm really struggling to follow this, DRLs do not require an upright sign as such, they only require an upright sign if the authority wants to use CCTV enforcement. Yes I know that seems bonkers, but it's what Mr Justice Swift said.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Watford Way, TfL, Red Route parking
« Reply #23 on: »
@cp8759

Here is a sign in one of the parking bays on the road (not the bay I was actually parked in).   I notice that there is no image of a camera on the sign - is this releavant?


« Last Edit: September 01, 2024, 11:57:49 pm by I-LOV-MONEY »

Re: Watford Way, TfL, Red Route parking
« Reply #24 on: »
@I-LOV-MONEY I have fixed your post above to show the picture. There is no requirement for camera warning signs, you're expected to obey all laws 100% of the time regardless of whether there's a camera or not.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Watford Way, TfL, Red Route parking
« Reply #25 on: »
@cp8759

I think we were posting virtually simultaneously there!

I will ring for the CCTV footage tomorrow.

Re: Watford Way, TfL, Red Route parking
« Reply #26 on: »
IMO, DRL need signs to indicate the prohibition because it's permissible to have exceptions to the 24/7 blanket e.g. except in marked bays etc. Therefore as the RR is starting afresh after the previous RR prohibition, which was part-time, then how else could this be conveyed other than with a sign? 

There is no indication in TSRGD or TSM that at the beginning of a RR a motorist should presume a blanket 24/7 no exceptions prohibition. IMO it should be signed to make it clear.

I don't know the context of Mr. Justice Smith's comment, but the regs seem perfectly clear.

Re: Watford Way, TfL, Red Route parking
« Reply #27 on: »
@cp8759  I have requested the CCTV footage.  It takes approx 15 working days, but the charge will be put on hold in the meantime.  She couldn’t tell me for how long, it will be in the letter.

Re: Watford Way, TfL, Red Route parking
« Reply #28 on: »
@cp8759  I have now received the DVD (I was hoping they had forgotten me!).  At first it shows general traffic moving, then zooms in on my car.   You can see it is between two boxes, but doesn’t show it is opposite an alleyway, if that is relevant.

Now if someone could explain, in simple terms (!) how to copy it to Google Drive or Dropbox, I will do.

BTW The letter doesn’t say by when I should submit my claim - maybe I have until October 2025!!!!!


Re: Watford Way, TfL, Red Route parking
« Reply #29 on: »


Now if someone could explain, in simple terms (!) how to copy it to Google Drive or Dropbox, I will do.



Have you got a computer with a DVD drive?