Author Topic: Wanstead, Redbridge Council, stopping in a yellow box junction  (Read 175 times)

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chris8

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I've been snapped in the yellow box of a high st. It's a fairly new box on Wanstead High St and placed just ahead of a zebra crossing - which has caused dangerous driving by some when they try to avoid being left in the box through no fault of their own.


When entering the box, the bus in front didn't look like it was about to stop and there was no one on the crossing at that point, so I should have had a clear exit.
Then when a pedestrian has stepped out unexpectedly, the bus has had to stop forcing me to stay in the box. There were no stationary vehicles in front of me when I entered the box.

I have the video from the council which I can share here if it helps. Below is the image they have supplied with the PCN.
The local councillors have already been contacted by locals and have been in touch with highway and parking officers about the new yellow box.
Apparently they have been informed that drivers should not be penalised for stopping to allow pedestrians to cross.

As you can see it's quite a long junction box. After the bus had stopped and I was stuck in the box, I tried to very slowly creep forward so I wasn't at a complete stop for more than 3 seconds.

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MrChips

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Re: Wanstead, Redbridge Council, stopping in a yellow box junction
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2025, 07:50:32 pm »
We'll need the video and a copy of the PCN with only be name and address redacted.

chris8

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Re: Wanstead, Redbridge Council, stopping in a yellow box junction
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2025, 08:32:03 pm »
Here's the video:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lgo48tiUzYxpcGxnPPT4uqccfvbosF3d/view?usp=sharing

And the PCN is attached.
If anything else is required, please let me know.

MrChips

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Re: Wanstead, Redbridge Council, stopping in a yellow box junction
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2025, 08:52:21 pm »
I've paused the video and moved forward incrementally second by second and on each frame your car is further forward - sometimes only marginally but further forward all the same. This suggests that you were never fully stationary, so technically no offence committed.

The location on the PCN is also typically vague for Redbridge. High Street is half a mile long with several junctions.  The box is too new to feature on Google maps so without the benefit of local knowledge the PCN is not specific enough in my view to explain where this alleged offence occurred.

Ps stopping for pedestrians is a valid defence but unfortunately you didn't stop for pedestrians, you stopped due to the bus blocking your exit.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2025, 08:58:13 pm by MrChips »

stamfordman

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Re: Wanstead, Redbridge Council, stopping in a yellow box junction
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2025, 09:31:17 pm »
It's a slam dunk contravention if you did stop - you just charged in.


Grant Urismo

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Re: Wanstead, Redbridge Council, stopping in a yellow box junction
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2025, 09:53:55 pm »
I disagree, anything less than 5 seconds could be argued to be de minimis, the video shows that if the OP's car did stop it certainly stopped for less than a second.

stamfordman

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Re: Wanstead, Redbridge Council, stopping in a yellow box junction
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2025, 09:57:26 pm »
I disagree, anything less than 5 seconds could be argued to be de minimis, the video shows that if the OP's car did stop it certainly stopped for less than a second.

5 seconds is an eternity. It's a no stopping contravention and there are no de minimus rules but less than a second could win.

Incandescent

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Re: Wanstead, Redbridge Council, stopping in a yellow box junction
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2025, 10:11:58 pm »
There is no definition of de minimis for cases like this, and many adjudicators seem to think even a nano-second is too long !

MrChips

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Re: Wanstead, Redbridge Council, stopping in a yellow box junction
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2025, 10:15:47 pm »
But the car didn't actually stop.

Pause the video and move it along a small step at a time (e.g. half a second). The car is always moving forward.
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Grant Urismo

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Re: Wanstead, Redbridge Council, stopping in a yellow box junction
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2025, 11:56:39 pm »
I agree, stepping through the video frame by frame shows the car did not stop, and when it was going slowly the brake lights were off.

Also, I'd argue the location isn't clear - the video shows a nondescript bit of tarmac captioned "LOC6991" which is no help, and the PCN states "High Street (WD)" which is both vague and meaningless.

If this was my PCN I'd play it dumb and challenge on the grounds that you have no idea what you're supposed to have done, and include a Subject Access Request (SAR) for any evidence that they might have that shows you actually stopped in a box junction (including precise frame numbers) and for the location they believe you were at at that time. Wrap up the challenge by pointing out that any stop was de minimis (not so much because they might accept it, more that if you sneak it in to something that gets handed off to the SAR team, they might well hand you a win by failing to consider). If nothing else this will cause them a bit of work and make someone actually look closely at the video.

I recommend you post a draft of what you intend to send to them here, so we can polish it up if needed.

H C Andersen

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Re: Wanstead, Redbridge Council, stopping in a yellow box junction
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2025, 08:12:24 am »
OP, let's cut to the chase.

If you are the registered keeper then you're off to adjudication because IMO there is no way that the authority would accept your argument. And in my experience an adjudicator won't agree either. The car clearly caused the nuisance the prohibition is designed to address because the bus to your left set off immediately the obstruction, the car, moved. IMO the adjudicator would not engage in a millimetre by millimetre forensic examination.

But views differ.




MrChips

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Re: Wanstead, Redbridge Council, stopping in a yellow box junction
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2025, 08:43:35 am »
Assuming the bus was turning left (it's not clear from the footage but I can't see a right indicator flashing), then the car does not delay its exit from the box as it would not have been able to enter the box until the other bus had moved off anyway, and would also have had to wait longer to turn for the OP's vehicle to cross the full length of the box first as it is obliged to give way.

I don't know what an adjudicator would make of the "no actual stop" argument, but it seems to me to be inconsistent to, on the one hand, interpret the rule as being strict ("any stop counts, even a nano-second") and also simultaneously not strict ("moving at a snail's pace is close enough to stopping even if the vehicle doesn't actually stop").

H C Andersen

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Re: Wanstead, Redbridge Council, stopping in a yellow box junction
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2025, 09:04:45 am »
Whether left or right, it set off immediately the obstruction ceased.

IMO, an adjudicator would see what's immediately evident from the video i.e. a car charging into a box on the tail of a bus without being able to see, and therefore not assessing, the road conditions ahead and being forced to stop within the box because of the stationary bus.

But maybe they wouldn't? I wouldn't put any money on a favourable outcome on this point.

MrChips

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Re: Wanstead, Redbridge Council, stopping in a yellow box junction
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2025, 09:17:26 am »
100% agree the footage doesn't look good and fails the 'sniff test'.  Also cannot give reliable odds of success of running this argument at adjudication (if OP decides to go ahead, I'd definitely run the vague location argument alongside).

But to my mind, either the rule isn't strict and there's some latitude for 'de minimis', in which case any stop here would have to be momentary and surely falls into scope, or it is strict in which case the car actually has to stop moving for an offence to be committed and I think it's hard to establish on the balance of probabilities that the car did come to a complete halt.

stamfordman

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Re: Wanstead, Redbridge Council, stopping in a yellow box junction
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2025, 09:28:03 am »
If the car was never stationary there is no contravention. There is at least one adjudicator who will take time to examine the footage frame by frame and will sometimes give the benefit of doubt to the appellant where it's not clear so this treatment can be insisted on in a personal hearing.