3. Wandsworth Council - Paid parking but PCN for parking in residents zone without valid permit
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oldnebraskan

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Wandsworth Council - Paid parking but PCN for parking in residents zone without valid permit
« on: April 02, 2024, 03:33:34 pm »
Hi all,

Back in February while visiting my sister I received a PCN from Wandsworth Council claiming I parked in a residents or shared use parking place without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place with parking contravention code 12.

On the day in question I did park on the street like in many previous occasions and I never noticed that in that side of the street there was a sign for resident parking only.

However the only sign I noticed on the street was from RingGo saying that payment was required for parking in location 10470 which I did pay online at around 2:48 PM until 5:30 PM

I have made an appeal to the council explaining my circumstances and that I never noticed the resident sign on the street and that I never tried to mislead the council or avoid parking without payment and that on that day I made a genuine mistake. My appeal was rejected claiming that the signage was located in close proximity to the rear of your vehicle and that parking remains the motorist responsibility . From the PCN pictures where my car was parked the sign mentioned in my rejection letter is at least at another car length and therefore not as close to my car and definitely not visible from the pictures taken from the rear of my car.

My question here is does anyone think or has had experience further appealing a similar PCN with Wandsworth council and do you think an independent party would see this as a genuine mistake as payment for parking was made at the time of the contravention?


All details hosted - https://imgur.com/a/7dlNF7o

I thought all signs in the street related to Permit Holders or Pay and Display users as:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/jq4qozG76vaYEeY77
« Last Edit: April 02, 2024, 11:51:10 pm by cp8759 »
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cp8759

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Re: Wandsworth Council - Paid parking but PCN for parking in residents zone without valid permit
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2024, 11:56:30 pm »
It doesn't really matter whether it was a genuine mistake, what matters is whether we can establish a legal defence. I'm not sure the photos you've shown us even establish a prima-facie contravention, please give us the PCN number and number plate and I will double check and also have a look at the traffic order for this street.

The notice to owner will demand the full amount but as long as you challenge it within 14 days the discount is almost inevitably reoffered, so don't worry too much about the discount.

Are you the registered keeper and do you have the V5C?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

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oldnebraskan

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Re: Wandsworth Council - Paid parking but PCN for parking in residents zone without valid permit
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2024, 10:07:25 am »
@cp8759 thanks for replying!

From all the pictures I have seen none of them show my car near the resident parking bay mention in the ticket nor do the parking bays in the street look different between the residents spaces and Pay and Display.

PCN number is WA89693394 and number plates is LX64UBZ. I am the registered keeper and do have the V5C.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2024, 10:39:05 am by oldnebraskan »
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cp8759

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Re: Wandsworth Council - Paid parking but PCN for parking in residents zone without valid permit
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2024, 11:35:02 am »
Council photos:





















GSV: https://maps.app.goo.gl/QrZbj2SxuJdJYy788

The traffic order is The Wandsworth (Tooting Broadway) (Parking Places) (No. 1) Order 1999 as amended by The Wandsworth (Tooting Broadway) (Parking Places) (No. 2) Order 1999 and The Wandsworth (Tooting Broadway) (Parking Places) (No. 1) Order 2002.

As long as the address on the V5C is up to date (don't assume, physically check it), let us know when you have the notice to owner and we'll draft something for you.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

oldnebraskan

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Re: Wandsworth Council - Paid parking but PCN for parking in residents zone without valid permit
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2024, 11:48:22 am »
I have just checked the V5C and the address is up to date.

Two questions please:

1- How long does the notice to owner normally takes to arrive (so I can keep an eye on the post)?
2- As you mention you will draft something I guess at least I have a small chance to formally appeal the PCN?

Thanks again
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cp8759

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Re: Wandsworth Council - Paid parking but PCN for parking in residents zone without valid permit
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2024, 06:15:41 pm »
They have up to 6 months from the date of the contravention to serve a notice to owner, but we'd normally expected it within 2 or 3 weeks of the expiry of the extended discount period.

There's always a good chance of getting a PCN cancelled, across the site I'd estimate over 80% of PCNs we see can be beaten for some reason or another. The biggest problem we have is people getting scared and giving up / paying prematurely.

A few of us act as professional representatives and we consistently win 85 - 90% of appeals.

If you get a formal notice of rejection and we think you don't have better than even odds and would be best advised to pay the discount, we'll tell you at the time.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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oldnebraskan

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Re: Wandsworth Council - Paid parking but PCN for parking in residents zone without valid permit
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2024, 06:00:06 pm »
Hi all,

So finally received the NTO from Wandsworth council asking me either pay or make a formal appeal to the PCN received in February.

Photos attached.

Any advice on how to proceed please?

Thank you in advance!

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oldnebraskan

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Re: Wandsworth Council - Paid parking but PCN for parking in residents zone without valid permit
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2024, 04:15:52 pm »
Hi @cp8759/fellow members,

Can anyone please advice how to proceed with the formal appeal?

Thank you in advance
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cp8759

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Re: Wandsworth Council - Paid parking but PCN for parking in residents zone without valid permit
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2024, 06:50:05 pm »
@oldnebraskan here you got:

Dear London Borough of Wandsworth,

I challenge liability for this PCN on the grounds outlined in the following tribunal cases:

LINK1
LINK2

In light of that the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

I will PM you some links to replace LINK1 and LINK2 above, those links will have a click counter that will allow us to determine if the council open them. If they don't, we have a failure to consider argument to deploy at the tribunal.

Make sure to send the representation online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

oldnebraskan

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Re: Wandsworth Council - Paid parking but PCN for parking in residents zone without valid permit
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2024, 04:10:31 pm »
Thank you @cp8759 hope you well!

I will do the appeal shortly! Can you please confirm that the option should I choose in the front page is A and in the reason for appeal in the following page is the message you shared with the relevant links?

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cp8759

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Re: Wandsworth Council - Paid parking but PCN for parking in residents zone without valid permit
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2024, 08:19:09 pm »
A will do, it doesn't really matter as the purpose of the boxes is to tell the council officer which template paragraphs to put in the rejection.

Maybe you should put B, then if you get a response saying DVLA has confirmed you're the owner and nothing else, you have a strong argument that they didn't bother actually reading the text of the representation.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

roythebus

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Re: Wandsworth Council - Paid parking but PCN for parking in residents zone without valid permit
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2024, 12:06:11 am »
I wonder here the sign is in relation to the parked car? I can't see it in the background of any of the photos.
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oldnebraskan

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Re: Wandsworth Council - Paid parking but PCN for parking in residents zone without valid permit
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2024, 12:35:34 pm »
Appeal submitted as suggested by cp8759 (thank you).

Will give an update when I hear back from the council.
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oldnebraskan

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Re: Wandsworth Council - Paid parking but PCN for parking in residents zone without valid permit
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2024, 12:01:27 pm »
Hi @cp8759,

Hope all is well!

I have just seen a letter from the council rejecting my formal appeal by claiming that the links shared in relation to previous tribunal cases couldn't be opened. 

I have since emailed her the original links as requested in the rejection letter but I suspect she will either not respond or not consider this evidence.

Considering the rejection letter only gives the option to appeal to the Adjudicator or pay the full PCN amount I guess I got nothing to loss by going to the Adjudicator

Any suggestion as to how to prepare for the Adjudicator and also submitting my appeal form (I got less than 28 days to do so)

Thank you as always

NOTE: unable to upload more images so added the letter below:
https://imgur.com/a/s3hc2bz
« Last Edit: June 28, 2024, 12:06:53 pm by oldnebraskan »
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John U.K.

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Re: Wandsworth Council - Paid parking but PCN for parking in residents zone without valid permit
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2024, 12:19:56 pm »
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