Author Topic: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane contravention  (Read 10534 times)

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Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #60 on: »
The state of the line. Not been maintained for years as shown on previous years on Google maps.



Shows how close the end of bus lane is to the traffic lights.



This bus lane is 183 metres long but they only have the camera focussed on the last 30 metres or so (without giving it away by showing the end).
I wonder why that is???  Kerching £1.4m p.a.


Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #61 on: »
I'll buy you a pint after the hearing! ;D
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #62 on: »
One of Kevin Moore's decisions as far as I  recall  mentioned the said "rule".  As far as I am concerned it is mere fantasy.

Found it:  http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=97260&pid=1053293&mode=threaded&start=#entry1053293


Case No. 2130253836
« Last Edit: November 24, 2023, 12:44:29 pm by Hippocrates »
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #63 on: »
No harm trying the mythical 20 metre rule.
I'm sure there are more recent examples of adjudicators allowing it. However, others have thrown it out.
I'll have a trawl through the register (again).

Traffic signs Chapter 3 section 9.9 states that:

‘If considered necessary due to observed driver behaviour, an upright sign to diagram 964 (S9 4 11, see Figure 9-5) may be sited as shown in Figure 9-1'

Given they only focus on final 33 metres the observed behaviour will be 99.9% people clipping the end. That surely needs a sign!
LBWF have said there isn't one to reduce street clutter. That's Bolleaux. They can't place a sign on the bridge. They've had them either end in the past (look at GSV) and now not at all. They should move the end back to before the bridge.


Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #64 on: »
22205552 Sean Stanton-Dunne Decision Date 17 Sep 2022

'I note that there is no end of bus lane sign to indicate precisely where the bus lane ends so that the motorist is entirely reliant upon the faded white arrow directing traffic to the left hand lane for the turn at the roundabout. I am not satisfied that the end of bus lane markings are adequate and I also find that the incursion into the bus lane by Mr Moghul's car was so minimal as not to amount to a contravention of bus lane restrictions.'

2220555224 - exactly same as above but different contravention date.

2220212523 - Monica Hillen Decision Date 20 Apr 2022

The Enforcement Authority’s evidence is the CCTV recording which shows the vehicle enter the bus lane after a break in the white line. It travels for no more than 10 meters to the arrow indicating the left lane was for vehicle turning left.
The Enforcement Authority have not shown the end of the bus lane in that they have failed to supply evidence to show where the bus lane ends. A bus lane must have a sign indicating the start and end.
In addition there is a 20 metre rule that should normally be observed before any PCN should be issued and in this case the vehicle clearly was not driven in the bus lane for this distance. In this case the appellant simply made a permitted left turn across a bus lane for no more than 10 metres before turning left.
On the evidence I find there was no breach of the bus lane restrictions. The bus lane was not signed in accordance with the requirements. The Enforcement Authority have failed to prove their case to the required standard.


2220078238 Belinda Pearce Date 23 Mar 2022

The Enforcement Authority adduce undated images of signage notifying motorists of a restriction; it is not possible to correlate the images to the contemporaneous footage.

Further, it is not possible to determine whether signage was in place implementing the terms of the Traffic Management Order and notifying motorists of the restriction.

Evidentially I cannot be satisfied that the contravention is proved, accordingly this Appeal is allowed.


2220091451 Sean Stanton-Dunne Date 17 Mar 2022

Mr James says that his car only entered the bus lane at the end to make the left turn. I have looked at the CCTV footage submitted by the Council. This shows that Mr James’ car entered the bus lane approximately 2 car lengths short of the arrow directing traffic to pull over to the left for the left hand turn at the roundabout. I am satisfied that the incursion into the bus lane by Mr James’ car was so de minimis as not to amount to a contravention of bus lane restrictions.

2220102784 Anju Kaler 10 mar 2022

The CCTV footage shows the vehicle drive to the left and, it is alleged, into the bus lane before it is permitted to do so. The Enforcement Authority relies on the footage and the site plan, stating that the vehicle should only enter the bus lane at the point where indicated by the arrow on the road and where the solid white line becomes a broken white line. The beginning of the white arrow can be seen on the footage.

It is clear from the footage that the solid white line appears to be broken before the arrows painted on the road. It may be that the paint of the white line has faded, but it does give the motorist the appearance of a broken white line. The arrows on the road cannot be seen when there are other vehicles in front, as in this case. there is no upright sign indicating when vehicles may move across. The entire paintwork on the road shows a lack of maintenance.
The markings are unclear and misinform the driver as to when the bus lane ends and when vehicles can move across.
I allow the appeal.


222007655A Monica Hilien 02 Mar 2022

I would estimate that the vehicle only entered the bus lane no more than 8-10 metres of the remaining stretch of that bus lane. However as the Enforcement Authority have not provided any evidence to show the end of the bus lane I cannot be satisfied the part where Mr Shah drove was indeed a valid bus lane. The Enforcement Authority must show the signage at the start and end of a bus lane. They have not done so. Even if they had it is it is apparent the white line finishes no more than a few meters along.

For completeness I should add that there is a 20 metre rule that should normally be observed before any PCN should be issued and in this case the vehicle clearly was not driven in the bus lane for this distance. In this case the appellant simply made a permitted left turn across a bus lane for no more than 10 metres before turning left.

I find on the evidence as presented there was no breach of the bus lane regulations. The appeal is allowed.


2210844790 Sean Stanton-Dunne 06 Jan 2022

Miss Selby says that her car only entered the bus lane at the end to make the left turn at the roundabout. I have looked at the CCTV footage submitted by the Council. This shows that Miss Selby's car entered the bus lane approximately 1.5 car lengths short of the arrow directing traffic to pull over to the left for the left hand turn. I am satisfied that the incursion into the bus lane by Miss Selby's car was so de minimis as not to amount to a contravention of bus lane restrictions.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2023, 04:10:13 pm by Glitch »

Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #65 on: »
@ Glitch:  excellent research.  Many thanks.  Make that two pints!
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #66 on: »

Up it to 3 pints and I can also look for cases where the adjudicator has denied the existence of the '20m rule' 😁

Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #67 on: »
Done. 8)
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #68 on: »
There is certainly nothing in law or any regulations that defines what is essentially a de minimis rule. De minimis is always something that is subjective and depends on individual circumstances.  I too, once read that adjudication, (gosh, was it all those years ago !!), and thought that this was just a little unnannouced internal TPT rule to bring some consistency to minor bus lane intrusions.


Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #70 on: »
And here are the October 2022 guidelines on bus lane enforcement for councils outside London.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bus-lane-and-moving-traffic-enforcement-outside-london/traffic-management-act-2004-statutory-guidance-for-local-authorities-outside-london-on-civil-enforcement-of-bus-lane-and-moving-traffic-contravention
There is no mention of a 20 metre rule.

Whatever guidance was referred to in the letter from Mr Philipp Nelson in November 2014, is unknown, because London councils & TfL enforce bus lanes using London-specific legislation and there is no guidance from government, so it must be some internal London councils document.

I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #72 on: »
We can see from previous cases that the 20m 'rule' doesn't exist in legislation but it does live in the heads of one or two Adjudicators and many appellants.

At best it appears to have been a guideline in the past but seems to have passed into mythology.

Always worth a try given recent successful appeals with Monica Hilien.

I cannot see how they can ignore the lack of maintenance of the roadmarking it hasn't been refreshed for years. At 2 metres the gap is longer than the recommendation for a dashed line (somewhere in Chapter 3 I think).

End of bus lane sign is needed due to observed behaviour. Some adjudicators think it's mandatory but it's only a recommendation.

My cynical self tells me it's a deliberate ploy by LWBF to issue vexatious PCNs.

There is no need for this bus lane, certainly not 'at any time' and they managed for years without a camera.

Might want to look at the TMO. I found the description of the start position confusing. Be interesting to get LBWF to explain it.


Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #73 on: »
I have e mailed the OP to file the appeal pronto. I agree:  scattergun approach is necessary in this case.
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
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Re: Waltham Forest - Whipps Cross Road - E11 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #74 on: »
Copy of the TMO

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