Author Topic: Waltham Forest, code 31 entering/stopping box junction, yellow box, High Road/Bush Road E11  (Read 1409 times)

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Thank you for your offer to draft something @MrChips, that would be very much appreciated, and thanks to everyone for your continued knowledge!

We've still got a few days before the discount expires so I'll probably draft something at the weekend.
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No one has mentioned a key part of the regulations.

TSRGD says:

'Part 6 conveys the prohibition that a person MUST NOT CAUSE A VEHICLE TO ENTER the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.'

Surely the adjudicator is going to look carefully at the footage when the OP enters the box junction. Then what happens to prevent exit.

That's the hope, yes.

Reps to follow later today.

OK, here you go.  Discount expires at the end of tomorrow so give it 24 hours for others to comment if you can before submitting online (and taking a screenshot as you do so).

Dear Waltham Forest,

Re PCN: FR65232814

I would like to submit representations against this PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.

You will be aware that a box junction contravention only occurs if a vehicle HAS TO [my emphasis] stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. Put another way, if there is sufficient room to exit the box junction then no contravention is committed even if a vehicle stops with a part of the vehicle within the box junction. In this instance, having reviewed the footage I can see my vehicle was only inside the box junction by a trivial amount, and had it moved forward just one wheel diameter (around 40 centimetres) it would have cleared the box junction markings.

Accordingly it would only be the case that my vehicle had to stop within the box junction if there was less than half a metre of space to the car in front (this is broadly the width within which a pedestrian could easily pass between the two vehicles). The angle of the camera footage provides very limited evidence of how much clear space I had in front of my vehicle, especially taking into account the foreshortening effect of a zoomed in video taken from that angle.  However, it seems to me very unlikely that my vehicle could not have moved forward the required distance to remove the rear wheel from within the box junction markings had I known they had not been completely cleared.

Should you reject these representations please confirm that you have carefully considered (and understood!) my point above by explaining the basis for your belief that there was not space for my vehicle to move forwards sufficiently to clear the box.  In particular I kindly request that a templated statement of the sort that "the CCTV evidence confirms the vehicle entered and stopped in the box junction without ensuring that the exit was clear" is backed up with some sort of explanation as to how precisely this has been "confirmed" by Waltham Forest given, as per my argument above, a cursory review of the video images alone does not confirm the length of clear space ahead in any way. I emphasise again that merely stopping within a box junction is not in itself a contravention, there has to be insufficient space to a stationary vehicle ahead to allow the vehicle to exit the box junction.

Notwithstanding my main point, above, the level of incursion within the box junction is also so trivial as to constitute de minimis in any event.  Please see London Tribunal decision 2240537258 for guidelines of what is considered a de minimis offence (i.e. a vehicle stopping with only its back wheels on or within box junction markings).  Further, I note the box junction markings within which the rear of my vehicle was overlapping is adjacent to diagonal white markings which mean that vehicles should not enter that part of the carriageway (unless completely necessary and safe to do so).  As such, not only was my vehicle's incursion of a de minimis nature, but it was also not obstructing any part of the road junction over which other vehicles would be allowed to pass through as part of their normal use of the junction.

For these reasons I look forward to confirmation that the PCN has been cancelled.

Kind regards,

Thank you very much for your time and putting the letter together @MrChips, it is very much appreciated.

Hi again

Thanks for all the assistance so far.

Unsurprisingly, a letter has arrived from Waltham Forest rejecting my representation - with the option to appeal.

I'm assuming I submit what my representations were to LBWF in exactly the same way to the adjudicator @MrChips?

You can see why people just pay it off

With many thanks

Paul

When registering an appeal, opt for a personal hearing (will be video oor telephone) - never choose decision on papers.

Please post the letter of rejection (only redact yr name & address).

Yes, please share the notice of rejection so we can see to what extent they've considered your representations.

Thanks @JohnUK and @MrChips



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you can understand why it seems easier just to pay it  >:(

Should you reject these representations please confirm that you have carefully considered (and understood!) my point above by explaining the basis for your belief that there was not space for my vehicle to move forwards sufficiently to clear the box.  In particular I kindly request that a templated statement of the sort that "the CCTV evidence confirms the vehicle entered and stopped in the box junction without ensuring that the exit was clear" is backed up with some sort of explanation as to how precisely this has been "confirmed" by Waltham Forest given, as per my argument above, a cursory review of the video images alone does not confirm the length of clear space ahead in any way. I emphasise again that merely stopping within a box junction is not in itself a contravention, there has to be insufficient space to a stationary vehicle ahead to allow the vehicle to exit the box junction.


Quote from: Waltham Forest
The PCN was issued because the CCTV evidence confirms that the vehicle entered and stopped in the box junction without ensuring that the exit was clear.

I have carefully considered your case and whilst I appreciate the circumstances outlined in your correspondence they are not sufficient grounds for cancellation of the PCN in question. The footage shows that the contravention occurred, the vehicle should not have entered the Box Junction unless it could clear the exit.


By the way, the opportunity to settle at discount ends today/tomorrow (depending on whether the 14 day period commences on or from the assumed date of service of the notice of rejection - the letter doesn't make it clear).

My view is that you have more than a 50% chance of success, but we can never guarantee 100%.  The fact the notice of rejection completely fails to address your main appeal point ups the odds of a win a bit.  The letter also shows a complete misunderstanding of the rules, and suggests that any stop in the box will result in service of a PCN which shouldn't be the case.

thanks @MrChips

Your mention of the 14 days has also alerted me to the fact that the letter took almost 2 weeks to arrive - so when does the 'served' kick in.

Another reason to not just give into them.

Thanks for all your advice!

I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is it is served when it is received at your address.  However, there is a presumption of service (when posted 1st class which they are obliged to do) two working days after posting unless you can sufficiently demonstrate otherwise. So, if you can show somehow it arrived yesterday (or whenever) then that's the service date, otherwise it's 28 May.