Author Topic: Waltham Forest - 53c entering a school street in restricted hours (Addison Road E17 / Ravenswood Rd) (Read 1921 times)

Rumtruffle · « **on:** September 13, 2024, 07:29:19 pm »

Hi,

Apologies I am not very technical so hope I'm doing this right. I received a PCN for entering a school street during restricted hours. This is what happened:

At 2:30 I entered Addison Road E17 from Shernall St OUTSIDE of restricted hours (restriction starts at 3pm), to attend a doctor's appointment in Ravenswood Road. I had previously checked that I would be permitted to leave the school street during the restricted hours and this is allowed. I parked just before the junction of Addison Road and Ravenswood Road (see google maps - link below). My appointment was 2:45-3:30, I was now parked during restricted hours but thought I was ok as leaving is permitted. On returning to the car, I pulled out of my parking space and did a 3-point turn a few metres ahead at the nearest place, just past the turn for Ravenswood Road. I then drove back down the school street to go home.

Where I appear to have messed up is the school street restricted area ends at the turning for Ravenswood Road. My three point turn took me out of the restricted area and back into it. This procedure probably took 5-10 seconds and I didn't realise I had done it.

The video only starts as I come back past the sign so doesn't show the few seconds before where I was parked then did the turn. If I had turned round a few metres before (where I was parked) I would have been ok as you are allowed to leave the school street during the restricted time if you are already in it.

Is there any point appealing this? Will they have video from a few seconds before and after that will evidence what I am saying?

PCN front
PCN back
PCN back page 2
PCN back page 3
Appointment
Junction - google maps

stamfordman · « **Reply #1 on:** September 13, 2024, 10:10:08 pm »

They won't have extra video (probably) but they must consider the circumstances. The video doesn't show any sign of a turn but the appointment record is there.

Unless someone sees or knows of a fault with WF's PCNs, the only thing you can do is politely put the case to them that you were in the zone and inadvertently turned just out and in.

Hippocrates · « **Reply #2 on:** September 13, 2024, 10:17:48 pm »

Why admit to anything? The video shows no signage passed so let them prove their case.

Pastmybest · « **Reply #3 on:** September 13, 2024, 10:21:56 pm »

For a PCN to be valid it must contain certain information

What is required in this one is set out in the LLAA2003 section 4

8 (v)that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable;

(vi)the amount of the increased charge;

Both of the above seem to be missing, this is an almost certain winner at tribunal

Rumtruffle · « **Reply #4 on:** September 13, 2024, 10:35:43 pm »

Quote from: Hippocrates on September 13, 2024, 10:17:48 pm

Why admit to anything? The video shows no signage passed so let them prove their case.

It shows the reverse of the signage (i.e. the end of the zone with me re-entering the zone) but yes, it doesn't show the signage that says no cars / pedestrians and cycle zone between 3-4pm. Would it need to show that, i.e. video from the other side?

Rumtruffle · « **Reply #5 on:** September 13, 2024, 10:44:43 pm »

Quote from: Pastmybest on September 13, 2024, 10:21:56 pm

For a PCN to be valid it must contain certain information

What is required in this one is set out in the LLAA2003 section 4

8 (v)that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable;

(vi)the amount of the increased charge;

Both of the above seem to be missing, this is an almost certain winner at tribunal

Sorry my fault - there is a second sheet of paper. Is this what you are talking about? If so, then it has been provided.
Back page 3
Back page 4

H C Andersen · « **Reply #6 on:** September 14, 2024, 07:59:47 am »

OP, the location is clearly local to you so you can revisit and check whether the alleged signs are there.

IMO, just check and put this issue to bed. The council only have to prove that the restriction was signed, they don't need to show in the video.

Not there - you win;
There- you can make a £65 gamble that they won't be able to prove this.

Rumtruffle · « **Reply #7 on:** September 14, 2024, 02:54:48 pm »

Quote from: H C Andersen on September 14, 2024, 07:59:47 am

OP, the location is clearly local to you so you can revisit and check whether the alleged signs are there.

IMO, just check and put this issue to bed. The council only have to prove that the restriction was signed, they don't need to show in the video.

Not there - you win;
There- you can make a £65 gamble that they won't be able to prove this.

It isn't quite as simple as the signs are magnetic and they put them up, take them down, depending on whether the restriction is active at that time. You can see that at the other end of the road on Google maps (shernall road/addison road junction) as the signs are not up in the photo. However, I would assume that they were up on this particular day as the school term started on this exact day. Is it a definite that they don't have to show you passing the sign with the sign in the picture? If so I will just beg as per my original defence as I only turned around outside the area.

stamfordman · « **Reply #8 on:** September 14, 2024, 03:40:56 pm »

Quote from: Rumtruffle on September 14, 2024, 02:54:48 pm

It isn't quite as simple as the signs are magnetic and they put them up, take them down, depending on whether the restriction is active at that time. You can see that at the other end of the road on Google maps (shernall road/addison road junction) as the signs are not up in the photo. However, I would assume that they were up on this particular day as the school term started on this exact day. Is it a definite that they don't have to show you passing the sign with the sign in the picture? If so I will just beg as per my original defence as I only turned around outside the area.

Term started the day before I think. The signs have shutters that blank the restriction out of term time, which is good practice as we see other councils skimping on this and just saying 'term time'. It is possible they forgot to open the shutters and I doubt they have evidence they did but an adjudicator is likely to accept their word.

I would certainly make a polite ask based on being in the zone and turning just outside. The medical appointment is evidence. But they may play hardball and not use discretion.

Rumtruffle · « **Reply #9 on:** September 14, 2024, 04:17:49 pm »

Quote from: stamfordman on September 14, 2024, 03:40:56 pm

Quote from: Rumtruffle on September 14, 2024, 02:54:48 pm
It isn't quite as simple as the signs are magnetic and they put them up, take them down, depending on whether the restriction is active at that time. You can see that at the other end of the road on Google maps (shernall road/addison road junction) as the signs are not up in the photo. However, I would assume that they were up on this particular day as the school term started on this exact day. Is it a definite that they don't have to show you passing the sign with the sign in the picture? If so I will just beg as per my original defence as I only turned around outside the area.

Term started the day before I think. The signs have shutters that blank the restriction out of term time, which is good practice as we see other councils skimping on this and just saying 'term time'. It is possible they forgot to open the shutters and I doubt they have evidence they did but an adjudicator is likely to accept their word.

I would certainly make a polite ask based on being in the zone and turning just outside. The medical appointment is evidence. But they may play hardball and not use discretion.

Thank you. I think I will end up doing this.

Rumtruffle · « **Reply #10 on:** September 20, 2024, 05:19:51 pm »

I’m aware of the pinned post saying not to reply to the council before senior members reply. Am I ok to reply based on the advice given above or should I wait for further replies? Thanks

John U.K. · « **Reply #11 on:** September 21, 2024, 07:27:37 am »

Post your draft reps here for comment but do not miss deadlines.

Rumtruffle · « **Reply #12 on:** September 21, 2024, 03:03:05 pm »

Ok, here goes. It is basically begging:

I entered the school street before the restriction came into force, via the Shernall St end of Addison Road. The restriction starts at 3pm and I entered at 2:30pm for a doctor’s appointment at the Addison Road Medical Centre at 2:45pm. I have attached evidence of the appointment. There should also be video evidence of me entering the zone at 2:30pm.

I have to drive to the medical centre as I am a blue badge holder with very limited mobility. I parked on Addison Road, within the zone, just before the junction with Ravenswood Road. As I have only recently registered with this practice, I checked the restrictions before making my journey and this confirmed that I would be able to leave the zone without penalty during the restricted times.

I left the doctor’s surgery just before 3:40pm, pulled out the parking space and turned round at the first available gap (3-point turn), leaving the same way I had come. Unfortunately it appears that in turning round, I crossed out of the zone and back into it. This would only have been by a few metres. The video is cropped to only show my car crossing back into the zone but if video exists for a minute before this, you will see me pull out of my parking space and turn around. If I had been able to turn exactly where I was parked, I would not have incurred a penalty as it is permitted to leave the zone if you entered it before the restricted time.

Please can you cancel the ticket on this occasion. I have now been sent a map by the school streets team showing me how I can get to the doctor’s surgery avoiding the restricted roads, so this will not happen again.

stamfordman · « **Reply #13 on:** September 21, 2024, 04:56:58 pm »

That looks fine - it's not begging as authorities have a duty to consider fairly all representations.

But you need to start it off saying what you want:

I hope you will kindly use discretion to cancel the PCN as I was legally in the zone and only briefly left by a few metres and re-entered to turn around. The circumstances were as follows.

Rumtruffle · « **Reply #14 on:** September 21, 2024, 05:01:07 pm »

Ah great! Thanks so much

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Author Topic: Waltham Forest - 53c entering a school street in restricted hours (Addison Road E17 / Ravenswood Rd) (Read 1921 times)

Rumtruffle

Waltham Forest - 53c entering a school street in restricted hours (Addison Road E17 / Ravenswood Rd)

stamfordman

Re: Waltham Forest - 53c entering a school street in restricted hours (Addison Road E17 / Ravenswood Rd)

Hippocrates

Re: Waltham Forest - 53c entering a school street in restricted hours (Addison Road E17 / Ravenswood Rd)

Pastmybest

Re: Waltham Forest - 53c entering a school street in restricted hours (Addison Road E17 / Ravenswood Rd)

Rumtruffle

Re: Waltham Forest - 53c entering a school street in restricted hours (Addison Road E17 / Ravenswood Rd)

Rumtruffle

Re: Waltham Forest - 53c entering a school street in restricted hours (Addison Road E17 / Ravenswood Rd)

H C Andersen

Re: Waltham Forest - 53c entering a school street in restricted hours (Addison Road E17 / Ravenswood Rd)

Rumtruffle

Re: Waltham Forest - 53c entering a school street in restricted hours (Addison Road E17 / Ravenswood Rd)

stamfordman

Re: Waltham Forest - 53c entering a school street in restricted hours (Addison Road E17 / Ravenswood Rd)

Rumtruffle

Re: Waltham Forest - 53c entering a school street in restricted hours (Addison Road E17 / Ravenswood Rd)

Rumtruffle

Re: Waltham Forest - 53c entering a school street in restricted hours (Addison Road E17 / Ravenswood Rd)

John U.K.

Re: Waltham Forest - 53c entering a school street in restricted hours (Addison Road E17 / Ravenswood Rd)

Rumtruffle

Re: Waltham Forest - 53c entering a school street in restricted hours (Addison Road E17 / Ravenswood Rd)

stamfordman

Re: Waltham Forest - 53c entering a school street in restricted hours (Addison Road E17 / Ravenswood Rd)

Rumtruffle

Re: Waltham Forest - 53c entering a school street in restricted hours (Addison Road E17 / Ravenswood Rd)