3. Waltham Forest - 12w Parked in a residents space - York Road E10 - Covered sign
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Re: Waltham Forest - 12w Parked in a residents space - York Road E10 - Covered sign
« Reply #30 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on November 19, 2023, 08:48:37 pm
Quote from: H C Andersen on November 18, 2023, 11:56:00 am
But there are some who would think: you parked; you failed to make any attempt to look for an applicable traffic sign; it's your fault.
As far as I can work out, there are three applicable signs for the bay where he parked, one was missing (pending the photo I asked for), one was obscured by vegetation, and one was far away and out of sight.

A motorist who parks and gets out of his car is required to look for signs that are visible, he is not required to walk out of sight of his car (after all a CEO might come along and issue a PCN) nor is he required to look behind leaves, branches, bushes and so on.

If none of the signs were visible, the contravention did not occur. The fact that the motorist might have incorrectly relied on an irrelevant sign on the other side of the road would not alter that.

Thank you for laying this out as this is how I see it now and will continue to oppose this.
I respect your overview HC Anderson, and agree that my initial representation was misguided/naive, but ultimately I entered the road, looked around and the only sign to make sense of the parking restrictions was the one opposite. I made a mistake, but so did the council. I want their mistake to be acknowledged and/or have a financial cost, so will take it as far as possible.

I really appreciate both of your input here, so thank you
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Re: Waltham Forest - 12w Parked in a residents space - York Road E10 - Covered sign
« Reply #31 on: »
Here is a simple draft:

Dear London Borough of Waltham Forest,

Having now taken legal advice, I challenge liability on the basis that the authority has defaulted on its duties under regulation 18(1)(b) of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996: there used to be three regulatory signs for this bay, but the one that would have been right behind my car has been removed, one was obscured by vegetation, and the only one that would have been visible was out of sight at the end of the road.

As there was no signage visible from where I parked my car, the alleged contravention did not occur. I would also point out that if the authority saw fit to provide three signs in the first place, it is under a legal obligation to maintain them.

In light of the above the alleged contravention did not occur.

Yours faithfully,


Send the representation online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page. If the council issues a rejection, I'll sort out the tribunal appeal for you.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2023, 06:28:12 pm by cp8759 »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Waltham Forest - 12w Parked in a residents space - York Road E10 - Covered sign
« Reply #32 on: »
That's wonderful, huge thank you once again cp8759.

Should I include the new photo of the missing signage to support? and maybe resend covered one - maybe the council don't know about the missing sign as they don't seem to be maintaining other signs very well on this street
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Re: Waltham Forest - 12w Parked in a residents space - York Road E10 - Covered sign
« Reply #33 on: »
small edit, 'but' not 'by' after bay,
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I help you pro bono (for free). I now ask that a £40 donation is made to the North London Hospice before I take over your case. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless before asking you to donate.
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Re: Waltham Forest - 12w Parked in a residents space - York Road E10 - Covered sign
« Reply #34 on: »
Quote from: tommytbone on November 26, 2023, 07:42:42 pm
Should I include the new photo of the missing signage to support? and maybe resend covered one - maybe the council don't know about the missing sign as they don't seem to be maintaining other signs very well on this street
Yes you should send the photos, but not for the reasons you think: the council don't care about your photos, it's unlikely they'll actually look at them. The reason for including them is that at the tribunal stage, you can make the point to the adjudicator that you provided the photos and the council is just being obtuse.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Waltham Forest - 12w Parked in a residents space - York Road E10 - Covered sign
« Reply #35 on: »
That's great. Thank you again for all your help here (and others contributing too). I'll get this sent off now
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Re: Waltham Forest - 12w Parked in a residents space - York Road E10 - Covered sign
« Reply #36 on: »
Quick update on this,
I've had no response from the council yet, but just noticed that the charge amount has dropped back to £65 on the portal. Will keep my eye out for correspondence too
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Re: Waltham Forest - 12w Parked in a residents space - York Road E10 - Covered sign
« Reply #37 on: »
Notice of Rejection of Representation received today and i've attached their response. What do you think regarding making an appeal to the adjudicator?

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Re: Waltham Forest - 12w Parked in a residents space - York Road E10 - Covered sign
« Reply #38 on: »
I've never been at this stage before and wouldn't say I'm very clued up about it. Also aware that my initial appeal was pretty naive and it seems that the person who sent this rejection is focusing on what I put in it (that I looked at a sign across the road and presume it to be the same for my bay)

The road still has 1 sign out of 3 originally visible - 1 removed & 1 covered by trees.
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Re: Waltham Forest - 12w Parked in a residents space - York Road E10 - Covered sign
« Reply #39 on: »
Hi OP, CP8759 and I are both regular attenders at the tribunal (him by phone me in person as I live in London) and both win a good percentage of our cases, think 80-90%

Either of us will happily start and process the Appeal for you. If you want me please email an unredacted Notice of Rejection to mrmustard@zoho.com - it doesn't cost you a bean.
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I help you pro bono (for free). I now ask that a £40 donation is made to the North London Hospice before I take over your case. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless before asking you to donate.
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Re: Waltham Forest - 12w Parked in a residents space - York Road E10 - Covered sign
« Reply #40 on: »
That would be fantastic and really appreciated @mrmustard. I'll email over now.
I want to thank you too @cp8759 - you've been superb!
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Re: Waltham Forest - 12w Parked in a residents space - York Road E10 - Covered sign
« Reply #41 on: »
An appeal was started a while back. At the hearing I raised the fact of the Traffic Order not proving the alleged contravention and an adjournment was granted to allow the council to explain. They didn't explain and the map they then produced was for a different order. The outcome is below, case 2240017407

Mr Dishman represents the Appellant. The Authority was not represented.

Mr Dishman pointed out that the map tile provided by the Authority had an " effective date" of 5 June 2023 when the alleged contravention was supposed to have occurred on 23 May 2023.

I adjourned the matter for comments by the Authority. The Authority's response is that "There is no schedule attached as there is not on present on traffweb." I do not understand the comment.

The point is that the Authority must prove that a Traffic Management Order provides for the restriction as alleged in the penalty charge notice. A TMO may use map tiles to indicate such a restriction but the map tile submitted cannot serve this purpose because it was not in force at the time of the alleged contravention.

The Authority has re-submitted a map tile with the relevant date. I am not prepared to accept this. I have to determine the case on the way it was presented at the first hearing. The adjournment was to give the Authority the opportunity to challenge Mr Dishman's submissions. It was not to enable the Authority to correct an error.

I allow the appeal.
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I help you pro bono (for free). I now ask that a £40 donation is made to the North London Hospice before I take over your case. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless before asking you to donate.
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Re: Waltham Forest - 12w Parked in a residents space - York Road E10 - Covered sign
« Reply #42 on: »
Winner winner chicken dinner!!

@mrmustard was fantastic and persistent as he had to stick with it beyond the initial date. Huge thanks once again.

Also, thanks for your help too @cp8759 - really appreciate it.

The council still havent made the signs on this road visible though. Completely covered by the tree now. Useless, and so glad they haven't made money out of this one.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2024, 03:10:37 pm by tommytbone »
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  3. Waltham Forest - 12w Parked in a residents space - York Road E10 - Covered sign