3. Tunbridge Wells, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Grosvenor Road
« previous next »
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Tunbridge Wells, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Grosvenor Road  (Read 964 times)

0 Members and 333 Guests are viewing this topic.

Tunbridge Wells, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Grosvenor Road
« on: »
My first time visiting Tunbridge Wells and first bus lane PCN. I did not see the signage for a bus only lane, nor the typical road markings I would expect to see. I was following my satnav to a parking destination that indicated needing to turn down the bus only lane.

Once I had entered the bus only route, I was unaware I was in a bus lane: the road is block paved and I had seen a 20mph road sign so assumed this was because I was entering the centre of town where there would be a lot of people crossing. I did not see any signs or road markings to indicate I was in a bus lane so carried on my merry way and parked in the nearby multistorey. Once I received my penalty notice I checked Google maps and there was in fact a 'no vehicles' sign as you pull onto 'Goods Station Road' from 'Meadow Road' (the direction I was coming from). It also appears again on 'Goods Station Road' at the entrance to 'Grosvenor Road' amongst 3 other signs.

As I was moving onto Goods Station Road I needed to get into the left lane and this is likely why I missed the 'no vehicles' sign as it there is not much time to see it coming from that direction (Meadow Road). Once I turned into Grosvenor Road, I only recall seeing the speed limit sign. The second no vehicle sign is obscured by the traffic light. The other signage (4 clustered together) I would have not had time to register all at once (the traffic was flowing, no lights to stop).

Any advice welcome for an appeal. I really don't think the signage is adequate (little time to register, obscured and overly crowded) coupled with the fact there is no road markings indicating a bus lane. This doesn't appear to be a bus lane, but rather a bus-only route. I don't know if that makes a difference but this case (quashed at tribunal) I believe reflects mine quite closely: https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/cheltenham-news/fine-quashed-after-bus-lane-8223581?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar.

All images here (notice, council's evidence and google maps images:
https://imgur.com/a/591uTDk

Google map links

Meadow Road turning onto Goods Station Road: Meadow Rd
https://maps.app.goo.gl/yaa5XsXP6QmpHqH36?g_st=ac


Leading up to bus only road (on Goods Station Road): https://maps.app.goo.gl/5BuKjKhRYDSbfkKR7?g_st=ac

At turning: https://maps.app.goo.gl/9kJv95phBjKfBHw4A?g_st=ac

On bus only road: https://maps.app.goo.gl/gtK1pmpgwc9wAXWy7?g_st=ac

Embedded:























« Last Edit: June 04, 2024, 04:34:41 pm by Anindividual123 »
Logged

Share on Bluesky Share on Facebook

Re: Tunbridge Wells, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Grosvenor Road
« Reply #1 on: »
My first thought is that the "Flying Motorbike" signs, plus the sign "Buses Only" that you passed does not make this a bus lane and the PCN has been served for the wrong contravention.  I would have expected the PCN to state you have driven on a street restricted to certain vehicles. However, I may be wrong on this, so wait and see what the others say.
Logged
Like Like x 1 View List
Re: Tunbridge Wells, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Grosvenor Road
« Reply #2 on: »
I think I'd tend to agree with you on that point. The signs are wrong for it to be a bus lane.
Logged
Bus driving since 1973. My advice, if you have a PSV licence, destroy it when you get to 65 or you'll be forever in demand.
Like Like x 1 View List
Re: Tunbridge Wells, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Grosvenor Road
« Reply #3 on: »
Thank you both for your input.

Presumably TW council could change the contravention code, but for now would you agree my best response is to simply state the contravention 34j did not occur and point to there being no signs or road markings to indicate a bus lane?
Logged
Re: Tunbridge Wells, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Grosvenor Road
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote

Presumably TW council could change the contravention code ?

NO, if they've messed up the PCN, no second bite at the cherry.
Logged
Like Like x 1 View List
Re: Tunbridge Wells, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Grosvenor Road
« Reply #5 on: »
Thank you, John. Just out of interest, what prevents Council's from correcting the code? Is there a common legal principle that takes effect in these instances?

Also, would you agree with my proposed appeal, I.e., contravention didn't happen?
Logged
Re: Tunbridge Wells, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Grosvenor Road
« Reply #6 on: »
@Anindividual123 The reason why the council cannot serve a further PCN is because the regulations only allow the council to serve a PCN, once they have used that power it is exhausted and there is no legal power to serve a further PCN. The only exception is where liability is transferred from one person to another (for instance if the registered keeper is a hire company, or the vehicle has been bought or sold around the date of the contravention) but then there is an explicit power in the regulations that allows the council to serve a further PCN on another person.

That being said, I'm afraid to say this case needs a rethink in light of the High Court judgment in Oxfordshire County Council, R (on the application of) v The Bus Lane Adjudicator [2010] EWHC 894 (Admin).

Let's go back to basics, why did you drive past the signs? Did you just miss them or did you not know what they mean?

Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Like Like x 1 View List
Re: Tunbridge Wells, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Grosvenor Road
« Reply #7 on: »
It seems I was incorrect in thinking a Flying Motorbike sign could not be enforced using bus lane contraventions but obviously the law disagrees ! Apologies to all.

The reason councils do this outside London is that they can enforce bus lanes under bus lane legislation, but until very recently, the powers in the Transport Management Act 2004 to enforce the sign on the basis of entering a street restricted to certain vehicles, had not been released by the government. In London a different Act allows such enforcement of Flying Motorbike signs used for LTNs and such-like. My memory recalls a very similar case in Nottingham, where the council issued bus lane PCNs for a Flying Motorbike sign. This one caused a huge row, because there were no bus services along the street !
Logged
Re: Tunbridge Wells, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Grosvenor Road
« Reply #8 on: »
Thank you, @cp8759.

I read the HC judgement. My laymen understanding from it is that as long as there is signage that clearly prohibits a section of road to be used by a vehicle, this can be used to enforce a bus lane/route penalty. Is that your understanding, also?

Quote
Let's go back to basics, why did you drive past the signs? Did you just miss them or did you not know what they mean?

Simply put, yes, I missed them. The circumstances were that I was only on the road with signage ('Goods Station Road') for a couple of seconds so I did not see the 'advance' notice/signage when making the turn onto the 'bus lane' road. I was following my satnav (being unfamiliar of the town) and only saw the speed limit sign ('20 Zone') and didn't have sufficient time or visibility of the other signage before I had begun turning into the 'bus lane' road.

I fear I may have jumped the gun. I have submitted my representation to say the contravention didn't occur, early this morning.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2024, 03:44:37 pm by Anindividual123 »
Logged
Re: Tunbridge Wells, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Grosvenor Road
« Reply #9 on: »
@Incandescent, annoyingly, I may have wasted my representation, but who knows? The HC judgement does put the matter right though. Whilst it would be easier for motorists to have universal bus lane signage and road markings be used throughout the country, the signage does convey a restriction that cars should not enter at specific times. In my circumstances, I don't believe there was sufficient time to have registered the restriction before turning into the restricted 'bus lane' road. There is perhaps 10-15 meters from entering 'Goods Station Road' which you have to see the signage, read the information, register it and change course accordingly. This distance ignores that you may be observing traffic to make a maneuver to change lanes, like I was. To my (now) frustration, had I not been able to change lane, it would have prevented me from being in the correct lane to turn into the 'bus lane' road .
« Last Edit: June 06, 2024, 03:41:57 pm by Anindividual123 »
Logged
Re: Tunbridge Wells, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Grosvenor Road
« Reply #10 on: »
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Tunbridge Wells, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Grosvenor Road
« Reply #11 on: »
@cp8759, thank you for giving your time to my case.

The map tile and associated legend doesn't indicate a bus lane but a pedestrian zone / prohibited access. I assume this doesn't materially change the bus lane contravention being enforceable. Would the traffic order need authorisation for the signage to be used?

I'm embarrassed by the last paragraph (overconfidence) but here is what I submitted:

« Last Edit: June 07, 2024, 04:48:00 pm by Anindividual123 »
Logged
Re: Tunbridge Wells, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Grosvenor Road
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: Anindividual123 on June 07, 2024, 04:44:33 pm
The map tile and associated legend doesn't indicate a bus lane but a pedestrian zone / prohibited access.
I'm not sure that's right, it says "No Motor Vehicles Except Buses, Cycles and Taxis", and a bus lane is a lane for buses and other limited classes of vehicles. There are countless bus lanes and bus gates across the country that permit cycles and taxis, so this one would seem to meet the definition.

You never know if you're lucky they might mess up the rejection.
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Pages: [1]
« previous next »
  3. Tunbridge Wells, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Grosvenor Road