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https://manchester.tarantoportal.com/     PCN: MC78460366    Reg: FL16MYG


Parked in a loading bay on Salmon Street in Manchester. Unloaded half the gear for a gig, helped the band set some stuff up. Returned less than 20mins later to unload the rest of the gear and get away, and of course I'd been ticketed. PCN says observed from 19:23 - 19:39, a total of 16 mins, which to me seems not unreasonable to leave a vehicle unattended while loading.

Attempted to challenge it through Manchester Council's PCN portal, they're not having it.
Here's my correspondence to them so far...


04/11/24 - Me

"On 01/11/2024 I was loading in for a venue called Shack, for a band called Loud Noises. It required moving and setting up equipment for a performance that began at 8pm. Each of the pieces of equipment, instruments etc, required setting up in the venue before I could then fetch the next piece. This could take around 20 minutes per trip. As there is no maximum time limit on the "loading only" sign, I deemed it ok to use the bay for what I required it for - loading in and setting up. If there had been a time limit on the sign as there sometimes is, I would have searched elsewhere for a space to park while loading in. I have attached pictures of the sign I was parked in front of, and the bay I was parked in. Please let me know if I have missed where there is a time limit on this bay. If not, I see no problem with how I was using the bay. Thanks, Laurence Mason"


18/11/24 - MCC

"Thank you for your enquiry, which we received on 04 November 2024.
You were given a PCN for being parked in a loading place during restricted hours without
loading. Loading bays are provided to allow loading access for all shops and businesses in a
particular area. The loading bay applies at all times unless specific hours of operation are
stated on the sign.
You are only allowed to stop there if you are loading or unloading. The Civil Enforcement
Officer (CEO) watched your vehicle but did not see any loading or unloading taking place. To
be entitled to the loading exemption a motorist must demonstrate that the vehicle was parked
only for so long as was necessary to load goods, which by reason of their size, volume or
weight could not reasonably be transported.
The act of purchasing the goods is not included in the act of loading. Goods may be moved
from the shop to the vehicle, but they should be purchased first and made ready for
immediate collection. This rule applies to blue badge holders too.
Although I am satisfied that the CEO issued your PCN correctly, I have noted the comments
you have made in your enquiry. We will reconsider your case if you send us an invoice,
delivery note etc. You must do this within 14 days of the date of this letter.
I have carefully considered your case and I am satisfied that your PCN was issued correctly,
and as such, I have taken the decision not to cancel it."


18/11/24 - Me

"Hello, I received an email from you this morning in response to a PCN I am currently challenging. You mentioned that my case will be reconsidered if I could provide an invoice or delivery note in relation to my use of the loading bay. Please find attached my invoice that was submitted to the band "Loud Noises" for the Coors promotional event that took place at Shack bar on 01/11/24. I have also attached a screenshot from my bank statement to show this invoice has been paid. I believe I was using the loading bay correctly, for exactly it's purpose, and well within reason. As I mentioned before in my notes, the limited space in the venue required us to move equipment into the venue and assemble it there before we could continue with loading in more equipment from the van. This meant time periods of around 20 minutes where the van was unattended and seemingly left parked. There are no restrictions on the sign telling us that this was not allowed, e.g. "20 mins max". Laurence Mason"


26/11/24 - MCC

"Thank you for your enquiry, which we received on 18 November 2024.
Loading bays are provided to allow loading access for all shops and businesses in a
particular area. The loading bay applies at all times unless specific hours of operation are
stated on the sign.
You are only allowed to stop there if you are loading or unloading. The Civil Enforcement
Officer (CEO) watched your vehicle but did not see any loading or unloading taking place. To
be entitled to the loading exemption a motorist must demonstrate that the vehicle was parked
only for so long as was necessary to load goods, which by reason of their size, volume or
weight could not reasonably be transported.
The act of purchasing the goods is not included in the act of loading. Goods may be moved
from the shop to the vehicle, but they should be purchased first and made ready for
immediate collection. This rule applies to blue badge holders too.
I have noted your comments regarding the invoice. However, your evidence does not show
that you had to be parked on Salmon Street at the time your PCN was issued.
I have carefully considered your case and I am satisfied that your PCN was issued correctly,
and as such, I have taken the decision not to cancel it."


02/12/24 - Me

"Hello, I'd like to address the points you made in your most recent response to this case. "You are only allowed to stop there if you are loading or unloading. The Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) watched your vehicle but did not see any loading or unloading taking place. To be entitled to the loading exemption a motorist must demonstrate that the vehicle was parked only for so long as was necessary to load goods, which by reason of their size, volume or weight could not reasonably be transported." As I've previously explained, I was loading equipment into a venue, Shack (69 High Street M4 1FS). The CEO watched my vehicle for a total of 16 minutes. As was necessary with this load-in, we had to load most of the gear in with one trip, set up the gear inside the venue as it was too small to unpack everything at once, then return for the last lot of gear. If the CEO had waited a couple more minutes, they would have seen us unload the last bit of equipment from the van. I'd be interested to know which authority you've consulted to find what a reasonable amount of time for using a loading bay is. I personally believe it's 20 minutes. In my case, I was able to unload the first lot, help set up in the venue, then return to the van to unload the final lot, and leave the loading bay as the band continued setting up. I'd also be interested to know what the official cutoff (in minutes) is for reasonable use, and why it is not written on the street sign. I imagine it would be incredibly difficult to demonstrate to an independent adjudicator that a time of less than 20 minutes is where you enter the realm of unreasonable. I hope you can see that I was in fact using the bay well within reason, that my PCN was issued unfairly, and that it will be cancelled. Laurence Mason"


10/12/24 - MCC

"We are in receipt of your additional enquiry received on 5th December 2024.
Please note we have previously responded to your informal challenge enquiry. I have
investigated your case and read the previous correspondence and I can see that you are
raising a point that we have answered in our previous letter.
Although I understand you feel strongly about the decision not to cancel your PCN, I do not
have anything new to add to the answer we gave previously other than to reiterate, although
you were unloading equipment you are not permitted to stay in the vehicle whilst you set up
the equipment you should unload then move the vehicle before completing the set up
process.
Should you wish to pursue this matter then you must make a formal representation as is
explained in the letter we sent you under the sub-heading 'You have these choices' which are
also provided overleaf for reference.
Your PCN will continue to progress until either payment is received or a formal
representation is submitted, using the NtO document, that will be issued and posted in due
course.
Please also note the opportunity to pay at the discounted amount is only applied once and
this is at the rejection of your informal challenge stage.
Should your formal representation not be successful the full amount of your ticket will be due,
details of which will be provided within your Notice of Rejection response letter, at which time
you will also be given the option to make a formal appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.
You can find further advice and information on appealing a PCN by visiting the traffic penalty
website at www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk
Kindly note, any additional correspondence submitted at this stage will not be actioned, as
such, ensure you follow the advice provided in your first response and below."

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So it looks like the next step will be NtO. I've noticed the images that the CEO have taken are timestamped 19:38 or 19:39 - does this mean they only have photographic evidence of me being there for a minute?

Any help / advice will be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance

They are right that you must be engaged in loading/unloading - while you can take time for say a bit of paperwork, setting up equipment is not loading.

That said it's harsh of them not to use discretion given what you say about the size of the venue but presumably you could have moved the van to a pay bay after unloading half the stuff. Was there other parking nearby?

Thanks for your reply - that seems really harsh about the "engaged in loading/unloading" bit. I would have thought there'd be some scope for leaving a vehicle unattended momentarily to actually load the goods into the venue/shop etc.

It was a busy night that evening, there was little to no on-street parking elsewhere.

Yes no issue about leaving it unattended while taking/getting stuff but you have to account for the observation time.

Post the PCN as there may be something there.

That's fair. I've attached a pic of the PCN on the post - let me know if it hasn't attached.
https://manchester.tarantoportal.com/     PCN: MC78460366    Reg: FL16MYG

Cheers!

You have already stated/admitted the following:

Each of the pieces of equipment, instruments etc, required setting up in the venue before I could then fetch the next piece.


IMO, you would have to prove why this is the case if you were to succeed at adjudication because I can't see you changing the authority's position.

So, why was this the case? Perhaps a space constraint in the venue or only you know how to set up or whatever? Just because it's your/their preferred means of delivering doesn't make it compliant with the law.

"the limited space in the venue required us to move equipment into the venue and assemble it there before we could continue with loading in more equipment from the van." - unfortunately they weren't interested in this reasoning and didn't cancel the PCN.

The only possible thing I could see working against them is the timestamps on the CEO's photos - they're marked either 19:38 or 19:39, so they potentially don't have any photographic record of me being there earlier or later than these times. Does this have any weight in my favour?

No. Photos aren't required, it's the CEO's evidence which is key.

Ah right, I think I'm going to have to suck it up and pay then unfortunately. Thankyou for you help!

Not a big van so that doesn't play well to a huge amount of kit that needed to be organised.

But if you want to go on I would make a play for council support to help local music and the lack of other parking. The bay restriction was also due to end in about 20 mins anyway. You were, after all, using a goods vehicle only bay for the purpose it is intended for.