Author Topic: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences  (Read 188 times)

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Roff25@yahoo.co.uk

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Re: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2024, 12:06:48 pm »
You'll win this appeal at tribunals easily,  reasons: 1. the left signage is facing the building and not towards oncoming traffic.
2. No no Right Turn signage to warn drivers
3. The right signage is  obscured by poles before you turn, see pic.
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John U.K.

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Re: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2024, 12:33:01 pm »
@sillybilly9  are you still with us?
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sillybilly9

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Re: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2024, 04:19:02 pm »
I tried my luck making formal representations which have been rejected.

I'm now set to make an appeal to the ETA.

Below are copies of my initial appeal, the notice of rejection and my proposed comments in the section asking for reason for appeal on the ETA form.

Please rip me to shreds and tell me the mistakes I've made or am making.




Original Appeal
Firstly I request that this PCN be considered concurrently with the following:
TT57905672
TT57918062
TT57920053
TT57928419
TT5792842A
TT57949372
TT57964434

For this I refer to ETA’s Register of Appeals -Case Reference 2140263304 where Mr Styles states “I consider that when I adjudicate on multiple penalty charges each deriving from the same mistake I have a duty to proceed so that the total penalty charge amount is not exorbitant, not disproportionate.”

Given all of the above PCN’s are for the same “mistake” of entering a pedestrian zone due to insufficient signage, and that it was not until the first notice was received in the post that I became aware of existence of the pedestrian zone, then it seems clear that a charge amount for each individual breach would be exorbitant and disproportionate.

With respect to the “mistake” I propose that all the penalties be cancelled as the signage around the intersection is such that it is not sufficient to warn drivers of the conditions that are inplace.

I refer to the ETA’s Register of Appeals -Case Reference 2220253407 which is a case covering the same pedestrian zone and where Ms Alderson states: "I note from the CCTV footage that the vehicle turns right into the restricted road. This junction appears to be immediately prior to the commencement of the restricted zone. There appear to be no warning signs on the road leading to the junction where the vehicle turned right, and although there is no statutory requirement for warning signs, I find that, without such warning, it is likely that a driver would be taken by surprise by the restriction immediately ahead of him as he turned right. I also note that, on the CCTV footage, the lefthand sign appears to face away from the relevant junction and is angled in such a way as to be unhelpful to a vehicle turning right. The righthand side faces oncoming traffic and also appears to be situated relatively high up. For these reasons, I am not satisfied that the signage on the day in question was insufficiently clear and I allow this appeal."

As with the facts in the above case, there remains no signage on approach to West Tenter Street to suggest you will be entering a restricted zone. The signage that is at the immediate point of entry was, both at the time of the offences and remains so as of 27/09/2024, angled and at a height such that it was not possible to view as the road is approached. This is shown both in the images provided on the PCN and more clearly in the attached photographs where it is clear that both signs are angled away from the driver as they approach the intersection. This prevents the signs from being visible on approach. Furthermore, they are at a height that prevents them from being seen as you enter the intersection.

Given these facts remain the same as the facts which led to the decision of Ms Alderson, I request that this notice and the other PCNs that have been issued for the same breaches of failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone be cancelled.

sillybilly9

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Re: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2024, 04:24:48 pm »
Just trying to upload the notice of rejection.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2024, 04:28:46 pm by sillybilly9 »

sillybilly9

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Re: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2024, 04:27:52 pm »
Notice of rejection

https://imgur.com/a/Znp2BZO

sillybilly9

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Re: Tower Hamlets - 53 - Pedestrian Zone - West Tenter St - Multiple Offences
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2024, 04:34:28 pm »
Proposing to submit the appeal saying the following...

As outlined in the appeal to Tower Hamlets which is copied below, it is my assertion that the signage at the time of the alleged offences was insufficiently clear to warn a driver they are about to enter a restricted zone at certain times of the day.

I note since I have lodged my appeal, the signage has been turned and is now more visible as you approach the intersection. At the time, the angling and height of the signs meant a reasonable driver would not have been able to see the signs. I propose that the fact that the signs have been turned would suggest Tower Hamlets agrees.

If the decision by Miss Alderson in Case Reference 2220253407 is not followed and my appeal rejected, I refer to Case Reference 2140263304 and propose that a total penalty charge of £1,040 is exorbient and disproportionate for the mistake of not being aware that the street had timed restrictions.

Original Appeal
Firstly I request that this PCN be considered concurrently with the following:
TT57905672
TT57918062
TT57920053
TT57928419
TT5792842A
TT57949372
TT57964434

For this I refer to ETA’s Register of Appeals -Case Reference 2140263304 where Mr Styles states “I consider that when I adjudicate on multiple penalty charges each deriving from the same mistake I have a duty to proceed so that the total penalty charge amount is not exorbitant, not disproportionate.”

Given all of the above PCN’s are for the same “mistake” of entering a pedestrian zone due to insufficient signage, and that it was not until the first notice was received in the post that I became aware of existence of the pedestrian zone, then it seems clear that a charge amount for each individual breach would be exorbitant and disproportionate.

With respect to the “mistake” I propose that all the penalties be cancelled as the signage around the intersection is such that it is not sufficient to warn drivers of the conditions that are inplace.

I refer to the ETA’s Register of Appeals -Case Reference 2220253407 which is a case covering the same pedestrian zone and where Ms Alderson states: "I note from the CCTV footage that the vehicle turns right into the restricted road. This junction appears to be immediately prior to the commencement of the restricted zone. There appear to be no warning signs on the road leading to the junction where the vehicle turned right, and although there is no statutory requirement for warning signs, I find that, without such warning, it is likely that a driver would be taken by surprise by the restriction immediately ahead of him as he turned right. I also note that, on the CCTV footage, the lefthand sign appears to face away from the relevant junction and is angled in such a way as to be unhelpful to a vehicle turning right. The righthand side faces oncoming traffic and also appears to be situated relatively high up. For these reasons, I am not satisfied that the signage on the day in question was insufficiently clear and I allow this appeal."

As with the facts in the above case, there remains no signage on approach to West Tenter Street to suggest you will be entering a restricted zone. The signage that is at the immediate point of entry was, both at the time of the offences and remains so as of 27/09/2024, angled and at a height such that it was not possible to view as the road is approached. This is shown both in the images provided on the PCN and more clearly in the attached photographs where it is clear that both signs are angled away from the driver as they approach the intersection. This prevents the signs from being visible on approach. Furthermore, they are at a height that prevents them from being seen as you enter the intersection.

Given these facts remain the same as the facts which led to the decision of Ms Alderson, I request that this notice and the other PCNs that have been issued for the same breaches of failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone be cancelled.

sillybilly9

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You'll win this appeal at tribunals easily,  reasons: 1. the left signage is facing the building and not towards oncoming traffic.
2. No no Right Turn signage to warn drivers
3. The right signage is  obscured by poles before you turn, see pic.

Can I ask the source of this photo? Can I please use it?

Hippocrates

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I am happy to assist with this one. BTW it is Miss Alderson. PM me if you wish to take up my offer.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

H C Andersen

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A contra view!

The photo taken from the driver's seat of a vehicle approaching the junction on the wrong side of the road probably won't fool an adjudicator!

The road marking at the junction conveys a requirement which IMO in practical terms means that a vehicle approaching from the side road, as in this case, must give way to traffic in the major road being joined. There is nothing to suggest that this is a one-way street, because it isn't, therefore a cautious driver would pause at which point the twin zone signs would be evident.

sillybilly9

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A contra view!

The photo taken from the driver's seat of a vehicle approaching the junction on the wrong side of the road probably won't fool an adjudicator!

The road marking at the junction conveys a requirement which IMO in practical terms means that a vehicle approaching from the side road, as in this case, must give way to traffic in the major road being joined. There is nothing to suggest that this is a one-way street, because it isn't, therefore a cautious driver would pause at which point the twin zone signs would be evident.

I have a number of photos taken from various points on the approach to the intersection. All show the sign on the left is at a significant angle, such that it can't be seen until you are in the intersection.

The sign on the right isn't turned as much but as has been noted is blocked by the poles, and as noted in the earlier decision made by the tribunal, is at a significant height, with that height meaning I can not see it when seated in the car at the intersection.

A big question for me is what weight does the earlier decision carry. I'm assuming it's not like my very basic knowledge of common law precedent but does the case carry significant weight as the facts are the same?

Other questions - how many photos should I attach
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:33:55 pm by sillybilly9 »

H C Andersen

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A previous decision may be persuasive but is not binding.